Howie Duit, PhD (piled higher and deeper) embellishes:

I did a comparison of different Resample Modes (Disable Resample, Blend Fields and Optical Flow) in Vegas 19-636 with the following results:

I would encourage everyone to download the file from here and step through it frame by frame to get a sense of the differences.

Full Disclosure

You'd have to hold a gun to my head to get me to use a camera that encodes progressive video in an interlaced container. This is intellectual curiosity in its purest form.

On second thought, at this late stage, I might just refuse and see what happens.

You'd have to hold a gun to my head to get me to use a camera that encodes progressive video in an interlaced container. This is intellectual curiosity in its purest form.

I certainly would have preferred a native 24p but on my budget this is what I could afford in a camcorder form that had manual controls and mic input. I will work with what I have and see how it goes.

You'd have to hold a gun to my head to get me to use a camera that encodes progressive video in an interlaced container. This is intellectual curiosity in its purest form.

Just like the multibillion DVD industry, it was done for one reason: to allow the legacy movie "feel" to play back on legacy analog teevees.

With all-progressive 60, all-UHD teevee coming to your local stations, it's only a matter of time before someone invents fake interlace / pulldown so that we may all once again enjoy that nostalgic "warmth" that only tube teevees can give us, while watching Leave it to Beaver.

I watched Paladin while I ate breakfast. I suspect the print was transferred in 1958. I'll replace my TV with an OLED as soon as ATSC 3.0 tuners are "line practice".

Now that was the Original Hard Telecine. The 24fps projector, which had a five-blade aerial shutter in a 3-2-configuation was shined directly into a teevee camera that scanned 59.94 fields per second.

@sonicvision

Your camera and its siblings were discussed on the forum in the past.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/black-friday-looms--91940/#ca549158

@Musicvid has likely forgotten more than most of us will ever know about media.

Your camera and its siblings were discussed on the forum in the past.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/black-friday-looms--91940/#ca549158

 

@john_dennis unless I missed it, that discussion doesn't mention how to use the Digital Cinema container in Vegas.

@sonicvision

@Musicvid has likely forgotten more than most of us will ever know about media.

Either I or the person who wrote that is an imposter.

On a semi-related matter, when using mixed frame rates optical flow can help. In this example 23.976 timeline, with media being 29.976(real frame rates). The file played at realtime speed (non conformed)

Resolve optical flow is much smoother then default Vegas Pro, and while Vegas Pro Optical flow should show similar good results, it doesn't. Vegas obviously know there's a need for it which is why it's a resample mode, so hopefully that will be fixed.

Good examples. To my eye, Resolve did look best here but not perfect. I am hoping to just find workflow that works best to use the 23.976 in 29.97i container in VP, without Optical Flow, best smoothness. When I am able I will shoot more and try various suggestions from this thread and see how it works for me. I was excited when some said my source file "is true 24P (in 60i container)" but still need to determine right Project and Render settings for this particular format of file.

Hi @sonicvision,

If Resolve is used to remove pulldown it is very important to specify the "First Frame of Clip" in the options. From this Resolve will figure out the proper cadence. If the default "A" was used, you can see interlace artifacts in your sample clip with poor results. If I change this to "E" then it appears that every frame as I advance through the timeline is progressive and should give you the quality you are looking for and the proper frame rate.

@sonicvision

• In Vegas Pro 19-636
• On my machine
• To my eye

Frame Blend with the following Project Properties produces fewer artifacts.

Examples

@sonicvision

• In Vegas Pro 19-636
• On my machine
• To my eye

Frame Blend with the following Project Properties produces fewer artifacts.

@john_dennis agreed. What is the red arrow indicating (looks sort of like some interlacing lines perhaps)?

Hi @sonicvision,

If Resolve is used to remove pulldown it is very important to specify the "First Frame of Clip" in the options. From this Resolve will figure out the proper cadence. If the default "A" was used, you can see interlace artifacts in your sample clip with poor results. If I change this to "E" then it appears that every frame as I advance through the timeline is progressive and should give you the quality you are looking for and the proper frame rate.

 

Hi @Vdanny I asked earlier but don't think it got response...are there a specific number/types of 'cadences'? I have yet to find anything about this online. One youtube video, in regards to working with Canon HV20 PF24 mentioned the 'WWWSS' option in AE but didn't go into more detail about these.

Hi @sonicvision,

I am not sure if there is a specific number but as I mentioned they can be different from camera to camera. The number would be limited by the frame rate possibilities. If you don't remove pulldown before editing your footage you will create a new cadence with each cut. The WWWSS cadence seems to be a common one showing the mix of progressive and interlaced frames. The option I mentioned above for Resolve seems to hit the right cadence but also means using Resolve. If you did so you could render out your clips with an intermediate codec and then import them into Vegas for editing. I have seen some excellent films with cameras like yours and others that have been shot in this format once the 23.976 file is successfully created.

Glad to see the discussion going on here.

Acting on the chance that @sonicvision and @john_dennis are on to something, specifically that Vegas 19 actually knows what it's doing with this stuff, I took some Hard Telecine (3:2) broadcast footage (1080 59.940i MTS) and rendered it two ways in Vegas; at it's native 60i, and IVTC in a 23.976p project. Straight no chaser, no pulldown, no "reconstructing," and no funny stuff added.

Here's a field-interpolated frame I grabbed from the original recording:

Here it is at 60i (30p on your computer). Step through and notice the dupes every fourth frame.

And here it is, faithful to the film at true 24p. You'll notice that it's both sharper and smoother than the broadcast.

Conclusion: Vegas takes care of both the major forms of telecine in its sleep, without so much as a whimper. I know I've learned something, glad to see some new faces discovering some new things as well.

Thank you both @john_dennis @Musicvid for you latest tests. May I confirm from you both that in addition to the project set to '24P' with Frame Rate of "23.976 FPS (IVTC Film)" you both also Rendered out with the Frame Rate of "23.976 FPS (IVTC Film)", as @john_dennis shows in his earliest reply to this thread?

As I mentioned somewhere earlier in this discussion, setting the project and renders both to Frame Rate 23.976 (IVTC Film) did seem to yield satisfactory results to my eyes.

Thanks again.

Yep

@sonicvision

"What is the red arrow indicating (looks sort of like some interlacing lines perhaps)?"

I sometimes forget that the forum software will re-encode my .png snapshots and destroy the fine detail. Download another actual screenshot from here...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TFgHftCE66eieILmbf8dj19MPUcyRTJT/view?usp=sharing

... and drop into Photoshop. Select View/Actual Pixels to see the jaggies that show up with Disable Resample or Optical Flow selected but not with Frame Blend.

 

"What is the red arrow indicating (looks sort of like some interlacing lines perhaps)?"

I sometimes forget that the forum software will re-encode my .png snapshots and destroy the fine detail. Download another actual screenshot from here...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TFgHftCE66eieILmbf8dj19MPUcyRTJT/view?usp=sharing

... and drop into Photoshop. Select View/Actual Pixels to see the jaggies that show up with Disable Resample or Optical Flow selected but not with Frame Blend.

 

Yup, that sure shows it. Thanks.

Hi @john_dennis and @Musicvid,

Thank you both for performing your tests. As I mentioned, cadence will become more of an issue visually the more you place cuts and rearrange clips. I made some edits to the copy of the original file and rendered the file as you did above. Several ghosted clips were generated as you can see in the frame grab. Cadence can't simply be ignored. Either a way has been added to do this recently in Vegas or you are doing imperfect workarounds without using pulldown. I encourage @sonicvision to do a short test that includes doing numerous edits to see if the results are still satisfactory to him.

I'll show more of my background work.

Handbrake Rendered File

Howie Duit in Handbrake

Shutter Encoder Rendered File

Howie Duit in Shutter Encoder

Some Actual 23.976p Video (to play with)*

*No fields were harmed in the making of this video.

These links may not be permanent.

@Vdanny I did a rough little thing today, nothing I want to upload, but it was several shots, trimmed up and edited together, whole track rotated a bit, one clip had Color Grade added, one clip rotated a bit, so not edited extensively, and still short (under 40 seconds) but overall seem ok to me. I will continue to do more and see how it goes. I will check things in Resolve (which I don't use much) as well.