Preview & render colours different to original file.

EricLNZ wrote on 2/10/2019, 4:01 PM

It doesn't help with the players not being consistent in brightness at all. It's somewhat confusing that snapshots have the same brightness as the Vegas preview as well, that is if VLC is showing the output video correctly, which it seems to be.

You will end up going in circles chasing your tail unless you have everything calibrated to the same starting point. as others have indicated. To get your players showing the same check their video settings. Some players by default convert SRGB to Full RGB. Also check your PC graphic settings for video to see what it does, also check whether it allows apps, such as VLC, to override its setting.

Musicvid wrote on 2/10/2019, 9:32 PM

It's somewhat confusing that snapshots have the same brightness as the Vegas preview

Then something, probably hardware settings, is still incorrect, and needs to be addressed first. It's kind of hard to maintain a speed of x mph, when your speedometer reads km.

WelshJester wrote on 2/11/2019, 7:26 AM

I'm almost ready to give up at this point.. I can't see where the issue is. In Media Player i also can't see any settings that might show the video correctly like VLC. Maybe i should just count Media Player out, but snapshots i guess still aren't right if they aren't supposed to look like the Vegas preview.

EricLNZ wrote on 2/11/2019, 2:17 PM

Like you I cannot find any settings in Windows Media Player but my impression is it displays full RGB. Check your pc graphic settings for video and you may be able to set it to show limited range there.

Musicvid wrote on 2/11/2019, 2:55 PM

You are focusing on your players. I am certain the primary issue is a hardware setting.

Did you follow my suggestion to reload your graphics utilities?

Musicvid wrote on 2/12/2019, 9:59 AM

@WelshJester

Are you actually using a secondary monitor? Is the secondary monitor color space set correctly in Vegas?

WelshJester wrote on 2/12/2019, 10:25 AM

Do you think the Nvidia dynamic range setting is partially to do with it? Because I even found this https://wiki.videolan.org/VSG:Video:Color_nVidia/ which suggests to use 0-255. But the default is definitely 16-235.

At 0-255 my .vob file looks as it should in both VLC and media player, i have .avi files that still look brighter in media player and other players over VLC though. Vegas snapshots still look like the preview window. So i guess it's still not right?

Musicvid i haven't reinstalled my graphics driver yet.. i can try it, but i don't think it's going to do much.

Musicvid wrote on 2/12/2019, 11:20 AM

AVI performance across players is not a test.

Would you like to rule out you graphics configuration as a possibility, or not? Entirely up to you.

Unfortunately, discussing probabilities won't accomplish that. While I might agree with you, I have no interest in going there, nor in being right. We call it troubleshooting.

Screen shots illustrating everything you see will be necessary going forward; descriptions alone are obviously a moving target.

Spock's famous quote from Star Trek IV and IX:

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. ...

WelshJester wrote on 2/12/2019, 11:20 AM

@WelshJester

Are you actually using a secondary monitor? Is the secondary monitor color space set correctly in Vegas?

I only have 1 monitor that i use for viewing my stuff. I'll try reinstalling my graphics drivers now.

WelshJester wrote on 2/12/2019, 3:15 PM

I used DDU to remove my drivers, cleanly installed fresh ones. Can't see any difference.

Here's a link to an image i did with 0-255 dynamic range

https://ibb.co/JFXBLH0

Musicvid wrote on 2/12/2019, 9:37 PM

I used DDU to remove my drivers, cleanly installed fresh ones. Can't see any difference.

Good. Now we have confirmed that your system baseline levels are correct. Not exactly a useless first step.

Here's a link to an image i did with 0-255 dynamic range

Here 'ya go. What purpose you have for AVI is your business, not anything I would consider. "Correct" among players and formats does not mean "the same."

0-255 means "within the range of," not some idealized endpoints. They are all different, but none out of range except for the obvious one.

Going forward, three essentials -- learn to use your scopes, troubleshoot one step at a time, writing down each change made so you don't forget to unchange it before moving forward, and don't overthink.

Best of success with your project.

WelshJester wrote on 2/13/2019, 10:01 AM

The snapshot from Vegas is also off, not just the .avi file.

If you import a video and take a snapshot, does it come out looking like the Vegas preview? Or are the colours correct? Maybe i should just leave it and use it as it is because it doesn't look like I'm getting anywhere, or try using a different video editor.

joseph-w wrote on 2/13/2019, 10:43 AM

The SeMW suggestion by (matthias-krutz) is the best suggestion. I use that also. Install it. If from experience w/ your workflow you know Vegas is going to render out full range or RGB just toggle the preview window to PC first (it adds the dropdown seen in the screenshot below) to make it look the way it'll look on output and leave it that way.

https://www.semw-software.com/en/extensions/

WelshJester wrote on 2/13/2019, 1:59 PM

The SeMW suggestion by (matthias-krutz) is the best suggestion. I use that also. Install it. If from experience w/ your workflow you know Vegas is going to render out full range or RGB just toggle the preview window to PC first (it adds the dropdown seen in the screenshot below) to make it look the way it'll look on output and leave it that way.

https://www.semw-software.com/en/extensions/

I'm willing to try anything. I just installed that now and i see a more subtle difference between selecting PC and TV, choosing original has too much contrast, anyway i selected PC and the preview colours do look right now and not too bright, the snapshot comes out looking as it should now as well, strange? I didn't think that would make a difference to snapshots.

I still have the issue of .avi coming out looking brighter in media player over VLC though. .mp4 colours look alright.

Marco. wrote on 2/13/2019, 2:18 PM

"i see a more subtle difference between selecting PC and TV"

Compared to "PC" the "TV" option won't touch the peak level but adjust the gamma based on the EBU technical paper for consumer flat panels (EBU Tech. 3321) which recommends a gamma value of 2.35 in dim-surround environment .

Musicvid wrote on 2/13/2019, 6:06 PM

The snapshot from Vegas is also off, not just the .avi file.

Sorry you missed that critical point. The Vegas preview levels 16-235 are correct for the default Vegas preview. Vegas is not a player.

Stuff like the temporary Computer RGB filter or SEMW extension expand the preview levels to emulate player levels. They also remove from our sight, color data lying outside the 16-235 range, which is annoying for editors who wish to see the full dynamic range, for the purpose of having full control over what they wish to include inside the limited 16-235 output range.

If you will carefully reread the link given in my first reply, you may begin to understand this difference better. "Preview flat, Play correct." That link, by the way, is gospel truth.

If you wish to preview corrected player levels in the Vegas preview, you must first employ one of the suggested workarounds for "flat preview levels." Please understand that correct player levels is not the Vegas default, as it is in some consumer editing applications. It may benefit you to download the Premiere trial and see if it better suits your needs.

But you are getting it, and my return image accurately reflects the Vegas default preview levels, which have less contrast than a properly adjusted player. Wishing you the best.

WelshJester wrote on 3/6/2019, 11:00 AM

My only solution is to render out in AVC mp4, and if i want to render out in most other codecs i need to apply studio RGB to computer RGB, otherwise the resulting render looks too bright even in vlc. I don't see any other way of getting past that.

Scratch the part i said about computer RGB, that makes some of the video too dark. Looks like I'm stuck with mp4 which is as close to the original file i will get.. Shame i can't figure this out, I'll have to play more later with the levels.

Musicvid wrote on 3/6/2019, 6:54 PM

My only solution is to render out in AVC mp4,

Yes, that is the correct delivery format.

WelshJester wrote on 3/7/2019, 9:11 AM

My only solution is to render out in AVC mp4,

Yes, that is the correct delivery format.

The only issue is that i actually need some other formats like Quicktime, because it can render out supporting transparency.

Also if i do a comparison of switching between a Vegas mp4 render and the original file in VLC, the Vegas mp4 brightness/colour is still not completely the same as the original, it's quite close however, but i guess it's good enough. I can see reds are a bit lighter.

Since Vegas renders out mp4 close to the original colours, is that why i see people recommending to apply a levels filter and then turn it off before rendering? Otherwise it comes out looking too dark since Vegas does a kind of stealth change upon rendering which would double up with the levels fx, i don't really see this mentioned anywhere. What I've found is that you actually need to keep levels enabled if rendering to most other codecs for it to look decent though.

What a mess, how is colour correction supposed to be done like that if you can't trust the Vegas preview? I don't see most others having or mentioning this as a problem when i see YouTube videos on changing brightness/levels.