Render quality/size ration: Vegas vs Adobe

MiCas wrote on 9/22/2019, 7:56 PM

Hi everybody! I would like to begin with statement that I’m not a professional video guy, just doing this for my family. But I like quality. I like my Vegas Pro 15: it is fast and responsive.

Few days ago I needed to edit a movie on the go and I tried Adobe Premiere Rush for iPad. After I came back to my home I tried to render short fragment of the same footage I was just amazed how good is rendering from such limited app on iPad in compare to my Vegas. I tried so many settings, but no luck. With the same file size render results of Adobe is way better. Is there is a secrete here or Adobe is really so good?

Thanks!

Comments

EricLNZ wrote on 9/22/2019, 8:13 PM

What do you mean by "good". How do both renders appear compared to your original material?

MiCas wrote on 9/22/2019, 8:21 PM

What do you mean by "good". How do both renders appear compared to your original material?

Let say, original has some background brick wall and letters on it. With the same file size I can see some bricks on Adobe and almost no bricks on Vegas. I have to double or triple the bitrate in order to see bricks.

Musicvid wrote on 9/22/2019, 9:00 PM

Sounds like they were rendered at different resolutions. There us nothing inherently "better" about one encoder.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

MiCas wrote on 9/22/2019, 9:01 PM

Both 1080p. It's like their bitrate is higher.

john_dennis wrote on 9/22/2019, 9:04 PM

Enough of the touchy-feely talk. Post the Mediainfo reports for the two files so we have some data to analyze. Better yet, post short samples of each on a file sharing site and post link here.

Not youtube, Vimeo or this site. We need the actual files.

MiCas wrote on 9/22/2019, 9:08 PM

Enough of the touchy-feely talk. Post the Mediainfo reports for the two files so we have some data to analyze. Better yet, post short samples of each on a file sharing site and post link here.

Not youtube, Vimeo or this site. We need the actual files.

Agree. I'll upload some files tomorrow. Thank you!

fifonik wrote on 9/22/2019, 9:51 PM

Posting media info can also be useful.

Camcorder: Panasonic X1500 + Panasonic X920 + GoPro Hero 11 Black

Desktop: MB: MSI B650P, CPU: AMD Ryzen 9700X, RAM: G'Skill 32 GB DDR5@6000, Graphics card: MSI RX6600 8GB, SSD: Samsung 970 Evo+ 1TB (NVMe, OS), HDD WD 4TB, HDD Toshiba 4TB, OS: Windows 10 Pro 22H2

NLE: Vegas Pro [Edit] 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, 22

Author of FFMetrics and FFBitrateViewer

Sylk wrote on 9/23/2019, 1:46 AM

Let say, original has some background brick wall and letters on it. With the same file size I can see some bricks on Adobe and almost no bricks on Vegas. I have to double or triple the bitrate in order to see bricks.

Screenshots, maybe?

Software:
[OS]  : Windows 10 Ent. x64 v1903 (18362.535)
[NLE] : Vegas Pro 17.0 (Build 321) // (Build 284 if posted before 9/24/19)
[DRV] : Studio 536.23 (Display, PhysX, HD Audio) // (Game Ready 436.15 if posted before 9/24/19)
Hardware:
[GPU] : Gainward RTX 4090 Phantom / GTX 1080 Phoenix GLH
[CPU] : Intel Core i7-2600K @3.4GHz OC@4.5GHz (HyperThreaded) | AirCooling: Noctua NH-D14
[RAM] : 16GB (4x 4GB GSkill Ripjaws X DDR3 1600MHz 9-9-9-24) @1333MHz
[SSD] : Samsung 860 Pro 1TB
[MOB] : Asus P8P67 Deluxe (Rev.1), No iGPU support
[SND] : Asus Xonar Essence STX
[PSU] : Corsair HX750
Devices:
[DSP1]: 30" DELL UltraSharp U3011 @2560x1600
[DSP2]: 28" Samsung U28D590 @3840x2160

[UPS] : Eaton 5PX 2200i RT

[CAM] : GoPro Hero8/4/3 Black. Apple iPhone 11Pro/6S.
[REC] : Zoom Handy Recorder H4.
EricLNZ wrote on 9/23/2019, 2:39 AM

Posting media info can also be useful.

Yes it will be interesting to see what codecs were used.

MiCas wrote on 9/24/2019, 7:05 PM

Ok. I have files uploaded. This was taken on Sony action camera, I special found shaken one. Look in the middle of file, behind the tree there is a brick building. You'll see that Adobe rendered version (even is smaller) has more brick details. Of course I don't need these bricks. But, what I'm doing wrong?

Vegas Pro 15:

Adobe Rush:

Original:

fifonik wrote on 9/24/2019, 7:26 PM

Videos you added were re-encoded by forum engine so important information is lost.

You need to upload these files somewhere (dropbox or similar) so we can download them "as is".

Also, you can install Mediainfo and supply information it shows you here as text. In most cases it would be more than enough.

Last changed by fifonik on 9/24/2019, 7:27 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Camcorder: Panasonic X1500 + Panasonic X920 + GoPro Hero 11 Black

Desktop: MB: MSI B650P, CPU: AMD Ryzen 9700X, RAM: G'Skill 32 GB DDR5@6000, Graphics card: MSI RX6600 8GB, SSD: Samsung 970 Evo+ 1TB (NVMe, OS), HDD WD 4TB, HDD Toshiba 4TB, OS: Windows 10 Pro 22H2

NLE: Vegas Pro [Edit] 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, 22

Author of FFMetrics and FFBitrateViewer

MiCas wrote on 9/24/2019, 7:52 PM

Ok. Here is the link: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AmCsYbvNLwaJgcN2ubs2sArO9LyOBg?e=wByx9V

And screenshot what I mean:

 

fifonik wrote on 9/24/2019, 8:59 PM

So here are Media Info of your files (I removed audio info).
 

General
Complete name                            : C:\Temp\Vegas.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID                                 : mp42 (isom/mp42)
File size                                : 8.87 MiB
Duration                                 : 7 s 7 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 10.6 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2019-09-24 23:37:50
Tagged date                              : UTC 2019-09-24 23:37:50

Video
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : Main@L4
Format settings                          : CABAC / 3 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, RefFrames               : 3 frames
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 7 s 7 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 10 000 kb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.161
Stream size                              : 8.71 MiB (98%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2019-09-24 23:37:51
Tagged date                              : UTC 2019-09-24 23:37:51
Color range                              : Limited

General
Complete name                            : C:\Temp\Adobe Rush iPad.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID                                 : mp42 (mp41/mp42/isom)
File size                                : 6.61 MiB
Duration                                 : 7 s 7 ms
Overall bit rate                         : 7 909 kb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2019-09-22 14:25:09
Tagged date                              : UTC 2019-09-22 14:25:09
TIM                                      : 00:00:00:00
TSC                                      : 30000
TSZ                                      : 1001

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L4.1
Format settings                          : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, RefFrames               : 2 frames
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 7 s 7 ms
Source duration                          : 7 s 42 ms
Bit rate                                 : 7 571 kb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Variable
Frame rate                               : 29.822 FPS
Minimum frame rate                       : 14.634 FPS
Maximum frame rate                       : 30.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.122
Stream size                              : 6.32 MiB (96%)
Source stream size                       : 6.33 MiB (96%)
Title                                    : Core Media Video
Encoded date                             : UTC 2019-09-22 14:25:09
Tagged date                              : UTC 2019-09-22 14:25:09

General
Complete name                            : C:\Temp\Original.MP4
Format                                   : XAVC
Codec ID                                 : XAVC (XAVC/mp42/iso2)
File size                                : 42.5 MiB
Duration                                 : 7 s 7 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 50.8 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2019-09-21 15:40:16
Tagged date                              : UTC 2019-09-21 15:40:16

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L4.1
Format settings                          : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, RefFrames               : 2 frames
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 7 s 7 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 49.1 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 60.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.789
Stream size                              : 41.0 MiB (96%)
Encoded date                             : UTC 2019-09-21 15:40:16
Tagged date                              : UTC 2019-09-21 15:40:16
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : sRGB
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

What encoded did you use in Vegas?

It looks like Mainconcept AVC or Magix AVC (I can see very well known blocking artifacts). Was it CPU or GPU encoded?

Last changed by fifonik on 9/24/2019, 9:14 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

Camcorder: Panasonic X1500 + Panasonic X920 + GoPro Hero 11 Black

Desktop: MB: MSI B650P, CPU: AMD Ryzen 9700X, RAM: G'Skill 32 GB DDR5@6000, Graphics card: MSI RX6600 8GB, SSD: Samsung 970 Evo+ 1TB (NVMe, OS), HDD WD 4TB, HDD Toshiba 4TB, OS: Windows 10 Pro 22H2

NLE: Vegas Pro [Edit] 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, 22

Author of FFMetrics and FFBitrateViewer

john_dennis wrote on 9/24/2019, 9:03 PM

1) We need the camera source file to make a scientific comparison.

2) Because the Adobe Rush file is variable frame rate, many comparisons to Vegas renders are more troublesome.

MiCas wrote on 9/24/2019, 9:05 PM

I tried all of them, but the one I shared was MAGIX AVC/AAC MP4. Template Internet HD 1080p 29.97

MiCas wrote on 9/24/2019, 9:09 PM

1) We need the camera source file to make a scientific comparison.

2) Because the Adobe Rush file is variable frame rate, many comparisons to Vegas renders are more troublesome.

1. Original uploaded to shared folder.

2. I tried variable at Vegas too. I thought that constant bitrate is better then variable.

EricLNZ wrote on 9/24/2019, 9:10 PM

I tried all of them, but the one I shared was MAGIX AVC/AAC MP4. Template Internet HD 1080p 29.97

Tks but CPU or GPU encoded? as asked by fifonic.

EricLNZ wrote on 9/24/2019, 9:11 PM

1) We need the camera source file to make a scientific comparison.

2) Because the Adobe Rush file is variable frame rate, many comparisons to Vegas renders are more troublesome.

1. Original uploaded to shared folder.

2. I tried variable at Vegas too. I thought that constant bitrate is better then variable.


John was referring to variable framerate not variable bitrate.

MiCas wrote on 9/24/2019, 9:19 PM

Didn't know that variable framerate exist... That was CPU encoding, but I tried GPU too. I have to note though, my laptop (i5) has primitive GPU card. But the tablet is iPad Pro 10.5. Does it affect the result?

fifonik wrote on 9/24/2019, 9:46 PM

One more question: could you supply project settings? (Alt + Enter in Vegas).

I'd suggest you to try Sony AVC encoder.

If you still need better quality, you should use external encoder (through frameserver or HappyOtterScripts). I do not believe that you will be able to get better results with Magix AVC encoder.

Camcorder: Panasonic X1500 + Panasonic X920 + GoPro Hero 11 Black

Desktop: MB: MSI B650P, CPU: AMD Ryzen 9700X, RAM: G'Skill 32 GB DDR5@6000, Graphics card: MSI RX6600 8GB, SSD: Samsung 970 Evo+ 1TB (NVMe, OS), HDD WD 4TB, HDD Toshiba 4TB, OS: Windows 10 Pro 22H2

NLE: Vegas Pro [Edit] 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, 22

Author of FFMetrics and FFBitrateViewer

EricLNZ wrote on 9/24/2019, 9:57 PM

Variable framerate (a pain for NLEs) is common for smartphones.

Having played with your source file I see your problem. I'm using VMS not Pro but the render templates are similar. Using the Robinson Building brickwork as a reference I have to increase the bitrate in MainConcept AVC, Sony AVC and Sony XAVCS to match the original or Adobe render. I'm using CPU only. At 10Mbps the brickwork is otherwise blocky. Using 20Mbps is more comparable.

With your Adobe export do you know what codec it's using?

MiCas wrote on 9/24/2019, 10:00 PM

One more question: could you supply project settings? (Alt + Enter in Vegas).

I'd suggest you to try Sony AVC encoder.

If you still need better quality, you should use external encoder (through frameserver or HappyOtterScripts). I do not believe that you will be able to get better results with Magix AVC encoder.

I tried Sony AVC too. The same.

I can't supply project settings, I deleted it. But I match to original file.

MiCas wrote on 9/24/2019, 10:02 PM

Variable framerate (a pain for NLEs) is common for smartphones.

Having played with your source file I see your problem. I'm using VMS not Pro but the render templates are similar. Using the Robinson Building brickwork as a reference I have to increase the bitrate in MainConcept AVC, Sony AVC and Sony XAVCS to match the original or Adobe render. I'm using CPU only. At 10Mbps the brickwork is otherwise blocky. Using 20Mbps is more comparable.

With your Adobe export do you know what codec it's using?


That's the problem: this app is designed to be used by non profs. And the settings are very primitive. The word "codec" itself is absent.

MiCas wrote on 9/24/2019, 10:03 PM

I know guys that Corel has even worst result. Plus it is crazy slow. At least on my machine.