Slightly different colors from original media to imported media

Comments

Musicvid wrote on 5/20/2021, 6:50 PM

In HandBrake (preview) the levels were similar to Vegas. So me using HandBrake (and Vegas) as reference for the levels was correct?

No. Preview Levels are no indication whatsoever of encoded (filtered) levels. There are exactly as many mutually independent variables as there are jelly beans in a five gallon jar. And Vegas preview, for the uninitiated, can be set any-which-way depending on one's previewing needs. Maybe starting by investigating the original levels paradox might make a better entry point in the learning curve. Note that the article applies only to the Legacy 8 bit Project Setting, for which RGB Vegas Preview was all we had available at the time.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/pc-to-tv-levels-a-comedy-of-errors--107325/

Welcome to the forums, and best of luck.

Musicvid wrote on 5/20/2021, 7:52 PM

I'm a little confused by this part

"Color range                              : Full
Color primaries                          : BT.709
transfer_characteristics_Original        : BT.470 System M
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.601"

So it's full range with 709 primaries and BT 601 matrix coefficients? I didn't realize these could be mixed and matched.

So is the issue that the file is actually 601 but Vegas is interpreting as 709?

All the older DSLRs were exactly like that, including Canon 5d Mark IV and Nikon 7000-8000.

@sss-v

Here are the 601<->709 LUTS published in 2016 by @Red Prince

Despite my earlier skepticism, they seem to work with your footage (apologies to @Marco. and @wwaag)

http://www.pantarheon.org/601vs709luts.zip

sss-v wrote on 5/20/2021, 10:56 PM

@Musicvid

I found that myself the other day, gave results identical to the presets @wwaag shared.

Musicvid wrote on 5/20/2021, 11:02 PM

Good to know.

Marco. wrote on 5/21/2021, 3:48 AM

@Musicvid
Red Prince's LUTs were the first tools I used for this case (because I yet hadn't the Channel Blend presets on my system) and then it sorted they work vice versa. The Rec601ToRec709 LUT is doing the 709 to 601 conversion and the Rec709tRec601 is doing the 601 to 709 conversion. Once you know it (and renamend the LUTs) all is fine.

Musicvid wrote on 5/21/2021, 7:30 AM

Yes, I noticed that. But what flabbergasts me is that this is the first time I ever thought we needed something like this. I edited and tested 5d Mark IV footage, as well as my Dr's Nikon D8000 footage and never saw such a red shift. Anyway, I'm glad to know I do need to pay attention to it now. You and @wwaag made a believer out of me. Also glad to know that Channel Blend is a path to making conversion LUTS.

sss-v wrote on 5/21/2021, 9:01 AM

@RogerS

So dropping the ISO to 200 fixes the shirt clipping, but makes my face a tad darker obviously. But I guess I'll with 200 and will fix my face in post if need be.

RogerS wrote on 5/21/2021, 9:13 AM

So dropping the ISO to 200 fixes the shirt clipping, but makes my face a tad darker obviously. But I guess I'll with 200 and will fix my face in post if need be.

Great. Not clipping is the most important thing.

If you shoot neutral (and it's less contrasty) you might find it easier to fix luminance issues in post.

This would be another one where a curve would help either in the color grading panel or the color curves Fx.

Create a point near the middle to anchor the curve and then a point slightly below the face in brightness and drag up-left a bit to bring your face to the desired brightness. Save it as a preset and you can apply to all future footage shot like this.

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RogerS wrote on 5/21/2021, 9:23 AM

I had no idea about the 601 issue in Vegas either (though I did have these channel blend presets so we must have discussed this before and I forgot)

Looking at old footage, what should have been red/white was definitely orange. Here the right side is fixed and left side is not.

Tip of the hat to Wwaag and Marco.


Is this a bug or is a 601 to 709 conversion something Vegas developers could implement automatically?

Last changed by RogerS on 5/21/2021, 9:34 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Marco. wrote on 5/21/2021, 9:36 AM

"Is this a bug or is a 601 to 709 conversion something Vegas developers could implement automatically?"

This is what I wonder, too.

Musicvid wrote on 5/21/2021, 11:05 AM

Handbrake seems to do it correctly from the available metadata, so it's possible. VLC didn't fare so well, unless one chooses the OpenGL for Windows output, which always assumes Full.

 

sss-v wrote on 5/22/2021, 4:06 PM

@RogerS

I've been looking into shooting flat and have installed the Similaar Flaats and Nikon Flat profiles into the cameras. Is there a way to automatically unflaten the footage in Vegas? My eyes are not well-trained, so if I do it by eye I will mess it up.

Musicvid wrote on 5/22/2021, 4:26 PM

Sure, if you can find a lut. Good luck.

sss-v wrote on 5/22/2021, 4:34 PM

@Musicvid

Not possible to generate a LUT from the picture profile directly?

I thought about taking a raw photo of my setup using the standard and flaat profiles, and then use Color Match to match the Flaat to the Standard. I can use that preset on the future footage. Is this ok to do?

 

 

sss-v wrote on 5/22/2021, 4:43 PM

https://nikonpc.com/

Flaat_10p, Flaat_11p, Flaat_12p, FLAT

RogerS wrote on 5/22/2021, 9:21 PM

Color match to standard would completely undo the flatness (if it works, never used it).

At least with a LUT you can adjust the intensity.

I am guessing flat is nowhere near as flat as log so you can probably do it by hand with an s curve.

Care to upload a sample of that and neutral?

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sss-v wrote on 5/22/2021, 10:07 PM

@RogerS


I’m happy with what I’m getting with Standard now. Actually, I don’t even know what kind of look I want, that’s why I’m opting for Standard. As I said, my eyes are not trained.

My idea for shooting flat was to have more freedom in adjusting exposure in post and maybe some grading later in the future. This would be especially useful with the D5300 because it shoots with variable bitrate. So it’s trying really hard to remove what it thinks is not needed (D7000 does constant bitrate). I’m assuming shooting in flat (with the same ISO) forces the camera to capture more data without increasing noise.

The NikonPC website basically shows you what each point in each profile is doing, so I think reversing that curve in Color Curve should get me back to Standard. Problem is that I can’t find a way to get readouts for the points I add in Color Curve.

Going to bed now. I’ll upload the files tomorrow.

RogerS wrote on 5/23/2021, 1:58 AM

"My idea for shooting flat was to have more freedom in adjusting exposure in post and maybe some grading later in the future"

That's what I said above when we were talking about reducing exposure overall but keeping the subject bright. It would be easier to do if you had a bit more brightness range.

You can confirm with MediaInfo, but I doubt there would be much of a bitrate difference between profiles. It mainly affects how much contrast and saturation is baked in. Standard likely hides noise more than flat thanks to the added shadow contrast, so I would expect to see more noise. You can hide it again in post with a curve that affects the deep shadows.

Yes, reversing the curve would put you back to standard but that's not the goal. The goal is to take the scene, compress the luminance range for capture and then decompress it intelligently to look good for the final shot (make sure subject is bright enough, nothing is blown out, the background is darker, etc.) If you wanted the final shoot to look like standard I'd just shoot standard.

Looking at the site I don't really like how many points there are on some of the flat profile curves. The neutral ones that just change gamma a bit would probably be preferable for reversing and not having tonal jumps. Or just start with standard and tweak brightness with curves to taste in Vegas.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

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VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
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sss-v wrote on 5/23/2021, 7:03 PM

@RogerS

There is some increase in bitrate as I use a flatter profile, presumably because there's more information in the shadows. I like this, so being able shoot flat and then revert back to the Standard look would be nice. This way I will have more freedom in adjustment and grading later.

The Flaat profiles are probably the most popular flat profile for Nikon cameras. I don't have the technical knowledge to know why, but people seem to like it. Am I correct that if the Color Curve effect would give readouts for each point I would be able to reverse the profile in Vegas? Is there a way to get readouts? Or is there another plugin that would do so?

For fun, I've also uploaded a clip of the side cam (D7000).

https://we.tl/t-SI3h4C1Nuk

RogerS wrote on 5/23/2021, 8:29 PM

More bitrate is good and you can always darken shadows in post if there is noise.

I used to shoot Cinestyle on Canon which is likely a similar approach. It came with a LUT to unbake the curve. Someone somewhere out there must have made something like that for Flaat? I never got into LUT making myself though what you describe is totally possible. If the reason there are points on the Flaat curve is because the maker is linearizing the Nikon's response then it's fine, and you can still hand correct it if desired. If it's introducing non-linearities you would want a LUT to put it back to normal.

Looking at the choices I think Flaat 10 or neutral are good starting points. 12 is boosting the shadows too far. Here is a moderate curve added to 10 to give it slightly greater contrast than what neutral has out of the box but still less than standard. Both seem easy to work with.


Out of curiosity was the exposure the same and only the profile changed in these examples?

For the D7000 side cam it looks good. There isn't much color for reference but does it need the same 601 conversion? It seems to use different color matrices.







 

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

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VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
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sss-v wrote on 5/23/2021, 9:52 PM

Cool, I'll give the SeMW plugin a try to see if using an inverse cure works.

Yes, same exposure on all the profiles.

The D7000 needs the same conversion.

RogerS wrote on 5/23/2021, 10:25 PM

I don't think you need to buy Graide, I just like the interface.

With any curve try to hide the worst noise in deep shadows, go for good tonal separation throughout the image (especially of your subject- you want the subject to stand out from the background) and keep whites from clipping.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
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sss-v wrote on 5/23/2021, 11:18 PM

Can't quite get the result I'd happy with. I think I'll shoot in Standard for now until I have the skill to shoot in Flaat properly. I've been spending too much time on this instead of working on the content I want to shoot! At this point the picture quality is way better then the content!

Thank!

RogerS wrote on 5/23/2021, 11:27 PM

Definitely, focus on what's important, which isn't this or compression. You can improve as you go.

You can make standard look a little less severe by adding a levels Fx and increasing gamma slightly. It's not hard to get it to look similar to neutral.

Good luck!

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7