[VP16] High DPI scaling: issues..

Comments

AVsupport wrote on 1/26/2019, 10:49 PM

For sheets and giggles, I tried to use DRAFT (Full) in comparison to PREVIEW. In Draft, my 'Preview' changes to 960x540, whilst the 'Display' remains at 1920x1080. Initially that plays back fine, but runs into a stagathon and freezey-loopey after about 30 seconds.

When I am using PREVIEW (Full) everything is 1920x1080, and I can playback the 2.5" loop just about forever.

(This is whilst putting a little load on the system with having ColourFast2 and Ignite Vibrance enabled on the track.)

This will show ~70% CPU, 35% GPU, 45% 7.5GB RAM and disks running around 0...and I will get ~22 fps on the Display which isn't satisfying.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

AVsupport wrote on 1/26/2019, 11:29 PM

At closer investigation, when using DRAFT (full) mode, it appears the RAM amount increases gradually during playback until it 'hits the wall': in my case, 50%, 8GB. Then the main windows preview starts to stutter, and the external still plays..until this craps out also a little while later..

That RAM gets released when the Preview Mode is back to PREVIEW (full). In that case, playback starts and RAM increases to from 6.1GB to 48% (7.6GB) no worries, just sometimes dropped frames (at clip starts)

/edit: Ah, OK, this [in draft] is happening with 2000 MB 'Dynamic RAM' selected in preferences. When I Up the value to 4000, it still craps out at 8GB use however the value keeps increasing gradually... in Preview/Full, memory gets clamped to 8.4GB max useage.

/edit: turning 'Dynamic RAM' =0 OFF actually helps the Draft preview not crashing anymore, and Display only occasionally dropping a frame here or there. System RAM stable at 5.3GB / 33%. Seemingly getting more frame drops / consistant underperformance on Preview (Full) with similar system memory usage (CPU 66%, GPU 39%, RAM 34%)

Last changed by AVsupport on 1/26/2019, 11:47 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Musicvid wrote on 1/26/2019, 11:35 PM

 

If i shot in 4K, and deliver in 4K, I could use the main screen to check on the footage (pixel for pixel)

And therein lies the common error in thinking and human arrogance, unfortunately. Human eyes cannot resolve anything even close to "pixel for pixel" at 4k resolution. And if they could, the picture would be lost to a bunch of dots, which are in themselves a representation, not stone tablets.

Anyone reading that we can't see what we can create??

Einstein showed us that the observer is part of the equation. In this equation human (observer) resolving power is literally left in the dust at any conceivable transmission screen size.

Or have you got that 200-incher already?

AVsupport wrote on 1/27/2019, 1:30 AM

Don't mean to derail myself, but wouldn't pixel density and viewing distance and source size would have to do with that equation? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retina_display

I have an Asus VP28U as main screen which I typically view from approx. 75 cm. Occasionally, I might lean in and inspect things a little closer. And I had laser surgery which now gives me pretty much 10/10 vision. https://stari.co/tv-monitor-viewing-distance-calculator

 

Last changed by AVsupport on 1/27/2019, 5:17 AM, changed a total of 4 times.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Musicvid wrote on 1/27/2019, 11:40 AM

Don't mean to derail myself

So let's not. Your topic starter was about Windows scaling on your your PC monitor, I was pretty sure.

One can work and deliver in 4k without having to preview in 4k, do you agree or disagree?

OldSmoke wrote on 1/27/2019, 3:23 PM

Don't mean to derail myself

So let's not. Your topic starter was about Windows scaling on your your PC monitor, I was pretty sure.

One can work and deliver in 4k without having to preview in 4k, do you agree or disagree?

Would you work HD in SD, preview in SD and deliver in HD?

Last changed by OldSmoke on 1/27/2019, 3:50 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

AVsupport wrote on 1/27/2019, 3:45 PM

Don't mean to derail myself

So let's not. Your topic starter was about Windows scaling on your your PC monitor, I was pretty sure.

One can work and deliver in 4k without having to preview in 4k, do you agree or disagree?

Yes you can, as you can by using proxies, but that's beside the point of OP.

The argument for '4K not being able to be resolved by the human eye' above, is not only untrue, but also besides the point of the OP.

If my main screen were a big 28" 1920x1080 display instead , then the 'identical' quarter-of-screen-realestate- preview would only have 1/4 of 1920x1080 pixels, which is effectively 480x270, which is bad and like working with proxies. Consider the closeness and size of the screen also.

As I said, depending on the requirements, I typically acquire in either 4K (if resizing is useful) or 1080/50 for 1080 delivery. I want to see all 1920x1080 pixels on my main 4K screen and my 1080 external monitor. For this to work properly, someone needs to fix Vegas.

Could I please ask to contribute to this issue in a helpful and meaningful manner.

Last changed by AVsupport on 1/27/2019, 3:57 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Musicvid wrote on 1/27/2019, 4:48 PM

then the 'identical' quarter-of-screen-realestate- preview would only have 1/4 of 1920x1080 pixels, which is effectively 480x270, 

No, 480 x 270 contains only 1/16 the number of pixels of 1920x1080.

960x540 (half res) contains 1/4 as many pixels as 1920 x 1080.

Likewise, 1920 x 1080 contains 1/4 as many pixels as 4K.

Here's a little math brushup I made just for editors -- we all forget this stuff if we don't use it, usually by middle school.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/math-review-for-editors-10-questions--111980/

But it's not about how many pixels we can create, is it, only how much pixel density we need so we can't see them at a normal viewing distance (your 30" viewing distance notwithstanding). The pixel count vs. resolving power curve pretty convincingly drops off the cliff at that point.

Again, what do you need to do in a 4k preview that you can't do in in 1080, especially if obsolete Windows scaling is bugging you? Then, your scaled raster graphics and text will look a lot better at 125%. It's a really simple partial solution that will take the strain off your eyes, without all the collateral you seem to imagine would beset your deliverables.

 I want to see all 1920x1080 pixels on my main 4K screen and my 1080 external monitor. 

That's very confusing. Do you want to see pixels, or a picture?

That's the only trick I have to offer at this point, and do let us know what you decide on until time offers us all a better solution to a very old problem.

And do continue pursuing your feature request. I have offered a viable partial solution for the meantime, so good luck!

 

 

AVsupport wrote on 1/27/2019, 10:21 PM

Yes, 960x540 (half res) contains 1/4 as many pixels as 1920 x 1080. Sorry quick error on my behalf. That's exactly what DRAFT (Full) does in the Preview Window, it cuts resolution in Half. But I want to see Pixel-for-Pixel in my Vegas 'Video Preview' screen. And Yes, I Can see my 1080 simultaneously on the external 1080. I don't know what's so confusing, please see below:

 

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

AVsupport wrote on 1/27/2019, 10:28 PM

Also, check this out for fun ;-) https://www.designcompaniesranked.com/resources/is-this-retina/

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Musicvid wrote on 1/27/2019, 11:05 PM

But I want to see Pixel-for-Pixel in my Vegas 'Video Preview' screen

Its not confusing at all. I just don't think you or I can see that. "Want" isn't even a blip on the radar.

If this "might" be true, why not set monitor screen resolution a notch lower, and see the UI so much clearer at the recommended 125%

?

This would require abandoning unilateral thinking, and I think you are being way too hard on yourself by making demands that those with 20/20 vision can't fulfill.

Those of us with progressive sensory deterioration can take only short-lived comfort in blaming our environments. True adaptation, and thus survival, comes from within. You can quote me on that.

AVsupport wrote on 1/27/2019, 11:12 PM

Problem is, you can't or shouldn't really 'drive' a monitor in a different resolution which is not its native resolution, like my 4K screen in 1080, you then get a soft image. And where do you get the 125% from? My 'recommended' is 150, but I'm operating it on 175%, and as you can see from the screen print its all tack sharp. (You might have to download and scale to 100% if you're watching this on your 1080 screen..) which I Can see

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Musicvid wrote on 1/27/2019, 11:24 PM

Ok for all the the silly excuses. Here's a big hug from a 69 yo with failing vision.

The first thing you need to do to get out of a hole is to stop digging.

AVsupport wrote on 2/2/2019, 1:20 AM

I was meant to add this image earlier but forum upload was corrupted ;-)

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

AVsupport wrote on 2/2/2019, 1:21 AM

..and this one

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.