VP19 - Discrepancy Between .WAV and .MP3 of Same Imported Audio File

Soniclight-2.0 wrote on 5/11/2022, 8:43 PM

I do all my main audio work in Steinberg Cubase 11 and then import it into Vegas Pro 19. For some reason, I found the high quality .mp3 version of my composition used in the Vegas project rendered out as an .mp4 warmer than the .wav. When I stacked the tracks of these two versions - .wav is the blue one, .mp3 the red - they don't match from the very beginning.

The first screenshot shows the start of the audio file/s.
The second shows a zoomed in comparison of them roughly halfway through.
The third shows the end: the .wav is minutely but still shorter.

The whole project is just short of 4 minutes long ending 7 seconds after the end of the audio soundtrack file.




I did the same track stack of these to files in Cubase to see if the same thing happens. It does not. The Cubase timeline is in musical timeline (beats and bars), whereas the Vegas one is in seconds and minutes for the bpm is irrelevant.

But either way, the files should be exactly the same in length. It's very minor issue in this rather simple .veg project, but it is something that I wish to solve for future projects.

Any idea why this is occurring and how to fix it?
Thank you.

Comments

Musicvid wrote on 5/11/2022, 9:15 PM

It's a known phenomena with .mp3 and it's only a few milliseconds. OK to ignore or trim as you would choose, and enjoy the rest of your life.

Also, the reason your compressed .mp3 sounds "warmer" than your uncompressed .wav, is because in order to compress your mp3, the audio frequency spectrum gets hard-clipped at 15,000 hZ. "Something" has to go! Suggest you forego mp3 audio for video, which was never designed as such.

EricLNZ wrote on 5/11/2022, 9:18 PM

@Soniclight-2.0 I'm not surprised. My knowledge of musical matters is probably one thousandths of yours but I learnt years ago that mp3 audio files are hopeless for accurate editing. I understand it's something to do with the type of compression used. I convert mp3 to wav when accuracy is required.

Soniclight-2.0 wrote on 5/11/2022, 9:35 PM

@musicvid10@EricLNZ - OK, makes sense and I won't worry about it. And, yes, if nitty gritty syncing of footage to audio would be necessary, I'd use a .wav. But in this case since I like the render with the .mp3 better, I'll go with that. The import and in-render are both 320 kbps so no loss, or if any probably very minute.

As to my experience level in audio, no pro here but I've been using Cubase for 20 years, so workflow familiarity is a factor. At 67, I'm averse to change when it comes to software. Upgrading from Vegas 10 to 19 threw me for a loop.

Musicvid wrote on 5/11/2022, 9:49 PM

The import and in-render are both 320 kbps so no loss, or if any probably very minute.

No, there is tons of loss and you can hear it, and no, Vegas does not smart-render .mp3 audio, so 320Kbps is neither here nor there. It gets another lossy render, regardless.

Current universal best practice audio delivery for video is AAC 48Khz Stereo, 190Kbps is good, 256Kbps is excellent.

It would be helpful to relegate your unrelated question about keyboard shortcuts to its own thread.

todd-b wrote on 5/12/2022, 12:58 AM

I do all my main audio work in Steinberg Cubase 11 and then import it into Vegas Pro 19. For some reason, I found the high quality .mp3 version of my composition used in the Vegas project rendered out as an .mp4 warmer than the .wav. When I stacked the tracks of these two versions - .wav is the blue one, .mp3 the red - they don't match from the very beginning.

When you play the high quality mp3 and wav in something other than VegasPro do they sound identical , does this change in tone for source MP3 occur both on Vegas timeline playback and Vegas rendered mp4?

What was the sample rate of both wav and mp3?

If it was a 44khz mp3, then Vegas can distort the audio if played back on a 48khz timeline. There were no audio experts that could tell us what was going on in a similar thread a couple of days ago, only thing I could show is that problem only occurs in Vegas, not Premiere or Resolve. If this is the same situation your problem is not resolved, someone needs to explain what's going on.

rraud wrote on 5/12/2022, 10:24 AM

The MP3 format is a final step end-user format and should be avoided .. period.. (if possible)

320kbs is inherently the maximum resolution of the MP3 codec, however that can be cheated by encoding as a single-channel mono file, however any spacial stereo information will be lost so it is only good for mono applications (spoken word for instance). If the same file is encoded as mono CBR, 320kps MP3, the file will have the equivalent quality of 740kps. FWIW, in my sum and difference experiments with spoken word files, cancellation is 90dB or better, close to lossless and any difference is inaudible. Music files are another story though and have much more complex frequencies and harmonics which are far from lossless. Even my old abused ears can clearly hear the difference in an A-B comparison.

rraud, Magix Sound Forge moderator

Soniclight-2.0 wrote on 5/12/2022, 12:25 PM

@todd-b & @rraud - Thanks for your responses that dive in deep on this. Due to other life priorities, I can't tend to this issue or offer an intelligent reply at this juncture. I just wanted to acknowledge your taking the time to post. I'll try to respond in due course.

Soniclight-2.0 wrote on 5/12/2022, 3:09 PM

OK, crisis currently averted, so I'll give this a shot.

I've applied the suggestions above to the best of my abilities and here are screenshots from Cubase audio export of the .wav audio, and then the render-out settings in Vegas.

While we could discuss the minutia of such valid feedback from you, the bottom line is... how does it sound?

I've updated the so far no-responses 2-day old posting on feedback on that very issue of this particular project in this forum to reflect the above settings. The posting also gives context of how this composition was created/re-mastered due to loss of of its 2005 original multi-track project.

The only audio fx I use in Vegas is a -1 setting of Smooth/Enhance since the high end got a bit shrilly IMO.

If you do not wish to read the posting mentioned, I'm including a direct link to its YT page. All I ask is that you listen to it with earbuds/headphones or however you would usually listen to music online.

Feel free to respond here or over there.

Thank you for your understanding.

Feedback Appreciated on Re-Master of Composition/Soundtrack

Direct link to track:

(on YouTube)

 

 

 

Musicvid wrote on 5/12/2022, 9:40 PM

Does "Perfect" convey my impression adequately?

Musicvid wrote on 5/12/2022, 9:45 PM

@Soniclight-2.0 As a music producer and teacher with a half-century of experience, I insist you put this project down for no less than three weeks without listening to it, then pull it up, listen, and then drink, have sex, cry, or whatever you have to do. It's a keeper. You have been suffering from a case of directoritis.

Soniclight-2.0 wrote on 5/12/2022, 11:37 PM

@Musicvid - Thanks for your supportive feedback. Though at first I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic due to your sense of humor about drinking, crying, sex, etc. Definite case of directoritis or in this case composer-production-itis.

Dropping the initial idea to make this into a music video is also the sanest choice for it would have pushed that itis-ism into the stratosphere.

This because the arc of the concept would require careful and sensitive selection and assembly of stock footage and the like. Much like a compact short film, and I just don't have the mental metal to handle that due to my medical condition.

Again, thanks for your input for having interacted with you off and on over the years here at the forum since the mid to late 2000s, I respect your experience and know-how.

You are as I once put it, among those that I called the Yodas of Vegas here.

NRN.

Musicvid wrote on 5/13/2022, 2:32 AM

Believe me, I've performed all three eulogies following major productions.

Did you know that Yoda, including his voice and some of his best lines, were channeled from a 1970s author and pop philosopher named J. Krishnamurti? He was known as the "Golfing Guru" to many, and I attended some of his lectures in Boulder during the day. Recognized the persona instantly when Yoda made his debut. I also knew Ginsberg, but that was a different story altogether ...

Musicvid wrote on 5/13/2022, 2:35 AM

Someone here turned me on to Mandelbulber, which might make a fitting fractal video backdrop for your music.

Soniclight-2.0 wrote on 5/13/2022, 2:31 PM

Krishnamurti and Yoda? Since I'm familiar with the former, I can see the carryover (minus the reverse conjunctive sentence structures). As to Mandelbulber, from what my online search shows, way too trippy for this project. More applicable to a Grateful Dead song IMO. :)