Will VLOG render as VLOG?

rkm82 wrote on 3/6/2019, 9:30 PM

Hi guys,

maybe that's an utterly stupid question I'm asking, but as I just started shooting in VLOG:

If I have VLOG material, and I render it... will it "keep the VLOG properties"?

Practical need: I often shoot greenscreen stuff that I want to give to post-production. Of the 20gb and VLOG file, I might just need a few seconds that I then send someone for post-production.

Instead of sending (uploading, downloading...) that huge file, I want to just "cut out" that snippet and then send it... but I'm confused whether rendering it will change the "raw material"?

If the answer is "YES", then:

HOW would I need to render (or what would I need to do) to "extract" just a tiny piece of a large VLOG file?

 

Thanks!

Comments

Musicvid wrote on 3/7/2019, 2:39 AM

What he said.

While you are waiting for a reply, see if trimming in the VideoRedo trial version retains the v-log metadata.

Eagle Six wrote on 3/7/2019, 10:30 AM

@rkm82 This isn't a direct definitive answer, rather a results. I fed a ProRes 422 10 bit (1080-59.940) clip from an Atomos Ninja Flame using a GH4 with Panasonic's VlogL into Vegas Pro 16. After making a couple cuts, rendered it out with Magix Intermediate HQ. Then brought that clip into Vegas and made a side by side check to see the difference in the color scopes. There was a very, very slight change in the luminance, that I would have expected.

Here are the Mediainfo specs, original source first then the Vegas Magix Intermediate render.....

System Specs......
Corsair Obsidian Series 450D ATX Mid Tower
Asus X99-A II LGA 2011-v3, Intel X99 SATA 6 Gb/s USB 3.1/3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
Intel Core i7-6800K 15M Broadwell-E, 6 core 3.4 GHz LGA 2011-v3 (overclocked 20%)
64GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200
Corsair Hydro Series H110i GTX 280mm Extreme Performance Liquid CPU Cooler
MSI Radeon R9 390 DirectX 12 8GB Video Card
Corsair RMx Series RM750X 740W 80 Plus Gold power pack
Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2 boot drive
Corsair Neutron XT 2.5 480GB SATA III SSD - video work drive
Western Digitial 1TB 7200 RPM SATA - video work drive
Western Digital Black 6TB 7200 RPM SATA 6Bb/s 128MB Cache 3.5 data drive

Bluray Disc burner drive
2x 1080p monitors
Microsoft Window 10 Pro
DaVinci Resolve 15.3 Studio
SVP13, MVP15, MVP16, SMSP13, MVMS15, MVMSP15, MVMSP16

Kinvermark wrote on 3/7/2019, 10:58 AM

Disclaimer: I haven't actually tested this. In theory, if you don't do anything to the footage, it should just pass-through on render. Assuming 10 bit Vlog L profile footage from a Gh5 you would need to output an uncompressed (or nearly) 10 bit file from a Vegas 32 bit project with exactly the same specs as your footage.

Maybe try cineform filmscan2 10 bit 422 as well.

fr0sty wrote on 3/7/2019, 12:10 PM

Depends... I know Magix Intermediate Codec didn't retain Rec2020 color space when rendered out of Vegas as of the previous version to the current one, I have not tested if that has been fixed since. So, there could be some color space conversion going on when dealing with VLOG if it is using Vgamut, and you could be losing/changing color in the process.

Marco. wrote on 3/7/2019, 1:00 PM

I think you'd need to select the proper V-Log color space in the render settings – and same for the clip properties (assumed you work in ACES project property).

Musicvid wrote on 3/7/2019, 1:04 PM

A sample v-log file, uploaded by the OP, could save us a lot of speculation. The importance of retaining metadata is a key player here, methinks.

Marco. wrote on 3/7/2019, 1:21 PM

I have such footage available. But (imho) Vegas Pro never reads nor writes such metadata. It's a matter of manually selecting the correct properties for input and output.

fr0sty wrote on 3/7/2019, 2:41 PM

I think you'd need to select the proper V-Log color space in the render settings – and same for the clip properties (assumed you work in ACES project property).

I did this with Rec2020 and it still converts back to Rec709. I've brought it to the attention of the developers. Again, not sure if it still does, this was a while back.

Musicvid wrote on 3/7/2019, 6:10 PM

Ill be happy to test in VRD if someone has time to upload short original sample.

fr0sty wrote on 3/7/2019, 7:40 PM

I'll try to get one up tomorrow. Not near the GH5 at the moment.

rkm82 wrote on 3/12/2019, 9:09 AM

Thanks for the replies guys - sorry for the late reply.

Here's my homework ;-)

Sample file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/e3ntw6b7oqr65u9/vlog_test.MP4?dl=1 (180mb)
 

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Codec ID                                 : mp42 (mp42/avc1)
File size                                : 173 MiB
Duration                                 : 9 s 9 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
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Encoded date                             : UTC 2019-03-12 15:00:57
Tagged date                              : UTC 2019-03-12 15:00:57

Other
ID                                       : 3
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : QuickTime TC
Duration                                 : 9 s 9 ms
Time code of first frame                 : 13:12:49;15
Time code, striped                       : Yes
Encoded date                             : UTC 2019-03-12 15:00:57
Tagged date                              : UTC 2019-03-12 15:00:57
Bit rate mode                            : CBR

 

**********************************

Vegas Properties:

General
  Name: vlog_test.MP4
  Folder: E:\Downloads
  Type: AVC
  Size: 177.03 MB (181’278’747 bytes)
  Created: Dienstag, 12. März 2019, 15:03:14
  Modified: Dienstag, 12. März 2019, 15:00:56
  Accessed: Dienstag, 12. März 2019, 15:03:16
  Attributes: Archive

Streams
  Video: 00:00:09.009, 29.970 fps progressive, 3840x2160x32, AVC
  Audio: 00:00:09.009, 48’000 Hz; Stereo, PCM

Summary
  [TCFM]: 6

ACID information
  ACID chunk: no
  Stretch chunk: no
  Stretch list: no
  Stretch info2: no
  Beat markers: no
  Detected beats: no

Other metadata
  Regions/markers: no
  Command markers: no

Media manager
  Media tags: no

Plug-In
  Name: so4compoundplug.dll
  Folder: C:\Program Files\VEGAS\VEGAS Pro 16.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\so4compoundplug
  Format: AVC
  Version: Version 1.0 (Build 8532)
  Company: MAGIX Computer Products Intl. Co.

 

rkm82 wrote on 3/12/2019, 9:18 AM

Also, my question would be - what are the settings to retain full color range (there are so many choices in terms of ACES color space, view transform etc.)?

Thanks for your help guys, much appreciated!

rkm82 wrote on 3/13/2019, 3:07 PM

anyone?

fr0sty wrote on 3/13/2019, 6:15 PM

The closest match to Vgamut would be the ST2084 (1000 nits) preset, it is also what you want to use if you record in the GH5's HLG mode, and also what you want to use if you want your output format to be HDR. Also set pixel format to 32 bit (full range). This kicks Vegas into HDR mode. This is the best way to retain the most of the color gamut and bit depth, though unfortunately this only works when rendering to the HEVC HDR10 preset. I've tried to render Rec2020 Magix Intermediate files without success, as I mentioned in my previous post... the renders default to Rec709. I have not tested with other formats.

fr0sty wrote on 3/13/2019, 6:20 PM

Also, for best results when working with VLOG, edit on a HDR capable secondary monitor using windows 10 in HDR mode (must have a GPU with HDMI 2.0 output on it). This will let you see the high bit depth color you are editing with (must use fullscreen preview). If you go into the preferences menu, and look under display adapter settings, there is a "enable HDR output"checkbox at the bottom. Check it. Also, make sure you are also recording in 10 bit mode with the GH5, either in Vlog or HLG modes.

From there, If you want to target 8bit rec709 screens, change your pixel format back to 8 bit and make adjustments to the color as needed.

fr0sty wrote on 3/13/2019, 6:52 PM

A couple other things to consider... If you are using a GH5, it doesn't have the dynamic range to fully realize VLOG's capabilities. True Vgamut like you get from the EVA1 is going to give you dynamic range/color beyond even Rec2020.

Here are the color spaces compared.

 

rkm82 wrote on 3/13/2019, 7:08 PM

Hi fr0sty, first of all, thank you very much for your answers :-) Much appreciated.

Unfortunately, they make very little sense to me, as I'm not familiar with the terminology. The reason I've asked the question initially because I want to "extract" shorter snippets from larger takes I shot, to send to an editor (who knows color grading and probably what you're talking about, haha...), but I don't want to "cripple" the material by the "rendering" of that snippet.

I take it from your answer, though, that the  HEVC HDR10 preset would be best to render.

Now, where do I find that? I have Magix HEVC/AAC MP4, but in that there's no HEVC HDR10 settings, and even when I customize one of the modes, I can't seem to set "HDR10" anywhere?

Thanks.. :-)

fr0sty wrote on 3/13/2019, 10:44 PM

If you want to cut snippets out of your file, the best way would be a non-destructive edit. Try doing what this tutorial suggests.

I thought you were wanting to know how to encode different formats in VLOG... unfortunately that isn't possible, and last time I checked there were some bugs preventing it from doing the closest thing to it (converting to a similar color space) properly. HEVC HDR10 is as close as it gets in a way I know works, but HEVC isn't the best format to send to an editor.

I think there are some Vegas tools that can do non-destructive trims as well, but someone else will have to point you in that direction.

rkm82 wrote on 3/14/2019, 8:15 PM

you, sir, ROCK!! This is a GODSEND. THANK YOU SO MUCH! :-)

eikira wrote on 3/19/2019, 12:20 AM

Also, make sure you are also recording in 10 bit mode with the GH5, either in Vlog or HLG modes.

There is nothing to make sure of that. Not really, because HLG does not work with 8bit anyway and therefore the GH5 disables HLG anyway.

rkm82 got more confusion in the end as it helped him. well until the lossless cutter was mentioned.

if one wants full controle over the colorspace and subcolorsamples the most secure, but space consuming, way is to render it as lossless raw. i have pegasys tmpenc there i have for encoding into h264 or h265 the full control over colors. that means i can output anything i want with the GOP manually settings i chose and prefer or ALL-I if i wish so.

Vegas is in this regard a bit crippled. For example it is not possible to chose h264 ALL-I 444 10bit with bt2020 etc. One HAS to use HEVC and still there one is not just simply able to chose 422 or 444, for that subsampling you need it to output into ProRes.
An in all cases, the endresult will be BT709 anyway, well at least on my laptop here right now it seems i cant change that. Probably vegas limits me here because i dont have windows10 and an HDR display on my notebook.