That worked. I sure appreciate everyone in the forum for answering questions. Some of these issues are simply not obvious. One other question... Any advice as to what I should set it to when starting a new project? I have no idea what 8 bit legacy as opposed to 8 bit full really is or means. It's difficult to keep up and sometimes frustrating.

Thanks for your help.

Edit in 8-bit full range esp. if you don't understand the difference with studio and computer levels and want Vegas to properly manage it for you. With 8-bit video levels you have to do it all by yourself.

Edit in 8-bit full range esp. if you don't understand the difference with studio and computer levels and want Vegas to properly manage it for you. With 8-bit video levels you have to do it all by yourself.

You're right. I don't understand it but I'd like to. Is there an article explaining it somewhere so I might? Not sure what you mean when you say that with 8-bit I'd have to do it all by myself and what it is I'd have to do all by myself that I'm not doing already and in the past. Please don't take this to be confrontational. I'm really wanting to improve what I do.

Hi Roger, I didn't take it that way- I more meant do you want to take the time to understand it as it can be quite confusing. I avoided it for as long as I could.

For the "new" auto mode in Vegas (8-bit full) start here.
https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/vp18-notes-on-the-8-bit-full-level-option--122749/

[Edited link]

Until that time we had to deal with levels manually. When I shot with a full range (0-255) camera it was easy- just add a computer to studio levels RGB filter at the end. However when I got one which shot video range (16-235) it got harder. It looked flat as it had no whites or blacks and the still images I used didn't as they were computer range (0-255). So I had to first manually convert the video to full range at the track or media level just to be able to see what I was doing accurately in the preview window. Then back to video levels manually to render a file that would play back properly.

What is your footage? Nick has a user-created database of camera levels. You can easily do your own tests as described here (shoot with lens cap on for black and a light source for white, then check the histogram).
https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/survey-what-min-max-levels-does-your-cam-shoot--84677/?page=1

Hi Roger, I didn't take it that way- I more meant do you want to take the time to understand it as it can be quite confusing. I avoided it for as long as I could.

For the "new" auto mode in Vegas (8-bit full) start here.
https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/de/forum/vp18-notes-on-the-8-bit-full-level-option--122749/

Until that time we had to deal with levels manually. When I shot with a full range (0-255) camera it was easy- just add a computer to studio levels RGB filter at the end. However when I got one which shot video range (16-235) it got harder. It looked flat as it had no whites or blacks and the still images I used didn't as they were computer range (0-255). So I had to first manually convert the video to full range at the track or media level just to be able to see what I was doing accurately in the preview window. Then back to video levels manually to render a file that would play back properly.

What is your footage? Nick has a user-created database of camera levels. You can easily do your own tests as described here (shoot with lens cap on for black and a light source for white, then check the histogram).
https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/survey-what-min-max-levels-does-your-cam-shoot--84677/?page=1

 

Wow! I see what you mean. Taken the past half hour looking some of that information over and you are right... very confusing. I do see a difference in using the full and legacy settings however. On a clip I put on the timeline, the "full" has the limit on 109% and the legacy is 104%. Either way I'd have to adjust it so not sure where the "automatic" level comes in.
I use several cameras but primarily a Panasonic DVX 200 and several Sony AX53's. I use a few other cameras but they are even older.
One last question and then I hope to leave you alone. Is your advice is to stick with the "Full" setting and just work from there on new projects and not worry about the "legacy" and if I have to edit an already rendered video made with the "full" to change the preference back to legacy since it bumps up the levels again?

Well if the scopes are set to full range (not studio/video levels) it will be 0-100%.

You don't have to do anything to adjust it in 8-bit full, it automatically sees if footage is limited/video range and expands it to full for editing. If it's already full range there's nothing it needs to do. If it's neither (16-255) you may have to manually tell it that it's full range and then make sure that blacks are black (use levels to bring down the blacks only). A Sony can be all three of these in the same camera. You need to do the test I outlined for each camera with whatever your settings are (and check it against Nick's list if it's on there).

My advice is 8-bit full on all projects. If it's a pre VP 18 project you did in 8-bit video then keep it that way but you need to manually conform levels to get legal output (esp. if there is a mix of video-range video and full-range stills).

As far as rendered video just bring it onto the timeline in 8-bit full. It will know the video is video range as that's what Vegas outputs by default.

@Roger Bansemer

Buried in @RogerS first link is an effort of mine that includes some files that you can use to experiment with levels in your spare time. It was made during the reign of Pixel Format: Legacy 8-bit (video levels).

Vegas Pro Levels - Last and Final # 1

A poignant quote from that thread:

"My interpretation of @Marco. test:

Vegas Pro is not part of the problem with changes in levels. The concept that appears to cause many people grief is that they think Vegas Pro should be part of the solution rather than be neutral."

I never created Last and Final # 2 since I use 8-bit (full range) in Vegas Pro 18 and later even though my camera shoots 16-255.

@RogerS linked to the German forum.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/DE/forum/vp18-notes-on-the-8-bit-full-level-option--122749/.

The US version.

Hi Roger, The Broadcast Levels fx is a holdover from analog television days, when levels were derived from voltages, and Chroma Slop up to 120 IRE was allowed. That fx could be safely removed today from Vegas.

The Computer->Studio levels filter (or Full Range) projects should always be safe for PBS, since luminance and chroma are hard clamped at [16,235]. To maintain its integrity, the levels filter must always be placed last in the fx chain; even something as simple as a Sharpen filter can cause illegal highlight levels, if placed downstream.

Edit in 8-bit full range esp. if you don't understand the difference with studio and computer levels and want Vegas to properly manage it for you. With 8-bit video levels you have to do it all by yourself.

You're right. I don't understand it but I'd like to. Is there an article explaining it somewhere so I might? Not sure what you mean when you say that with 8-bit I'd have to do it all by myself and what it is I'd have to do all by myself that I'm not doing already and in the past. Please don't take this to be confrontational. I'm really wanting to improve what I do.

Maybe my humorous take on video levels will make some sense out of it. If not, it's still a good read.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/pc-to-tv-levels-a-comedy-of-errors--107325/

Hi Roger, The Broadcast Levels fx is a holdover from analog television days, when levels were derived from voltages, and Chroma Slop up to 120 IRE was allowed. That fx could be safely removed today from Vegas.

The Computer->Studio levels filter (or Full Range) projects should always be safe for PBS, since luminance and chroma are hard clamped at [16,235]. To maintain its integrity, the levels filter must always be placed last in the fx chain; even something as simple as a Sharpen filter can cause illegal highlight levels, if placed downstream.

I've been reading all the posts about this 8 bit full and legacy and I still find it totally confusing. Guess I'm looking for a simple answer especially when some posts say to check out my cameras, etc. to see what they are capable of which doesn't help because some cameras might be capable of the higher range and others not, so it doesn't help if I have 5 or 6 cameras on one project each of different specs.
I do know that if I have my project set to either 8bit full or legacy, I can edit and get my broadcast levels correct. At least they look right according to the scopes so is there a simple answer which one to use.
I do know that if I take a rendered video that is broadcast safe and put it back into Vegas it bumps up the levels again so I guess I have to be careful if editing an already rendered video that I switch back to legacy.
 

@Roger Bansemer

"I do know that if I take a rendered video that is broadcast safe and put it back into Vegas it bumps up the levels again..."

I use an ancient version of Vegas Pro (4-17) to check that if I'm half asleep and/or really curious. Those versions don't attempt to "help you do your job".

If you don't have an ancient version of Vegas Pro.

1. Open the rendered file in a new Vegas Pro project.
2. For the Pixel Format select Legacy (8-bit video levels).
3. 
4. Set Preview to Best/Full

The scopes will not be altered by any help from Vegas and you will see what other applications see before they screw up the levels beyond recognition.

@Roger Bansemer

"I do know that if I take a rendered video that is broadcast safe and put it back into Vegas it bumps up the levels again..."

I use an ancient version of Vegas Pro (4-17) to check that if I'm half asleep and/or really curious. Those versions don't attempt to "help you do your job".

If you don't have an ancient version of Vegas Pro.

1. Open the rendered file in a new Vegas Pro project.
2. For the Pixel Format select Legacy (8-bit video levels).
3. 
4. Set Preview to Best/Full

The scopes will not be altered by any help from Vegas and you will see what other applications see before they screw up the levels beyond recognition.

This helps. Thanks. So what I'll do is edit in Full Bit and if I want to edit already rendered switch to Legacy. I think I got it ! If you would be so kind, can you simply explain how the Full Bit is "helping me do my job" as it doesn't limit the levels to 100 automatically. I still have to go in and adjust levels just as I do with the Legacy setting.
Sorry to be so stupid with this stuff. I've produced and edited 143 of our shows for PBS called "Painting and Travel" and this "full bit" thing has thrown me.

@Roger Bansemer

"...can you simply explain how the Full Bit is "helping me do my job" as it doesn't limit the levels to 100 automatically. I still have to go in and adjust levels just as I do with the Legacy setting."

Vegas 18 attempts to characterize the video to determine what the levels should be based on the media standard for the file type. Then it expands the levels or not based on whether the media should be limited range or full range so the Preview screen in Vegas 18 will match what the user will see if every application in the production chain follows the rules.

Vegas 17 vs Vegas 18

Notice the Vegas 17 Preview looks "flat" while the Vegas 18 Preview has more contrast.