@JohnnyRoy

With all due respect, I think I said the same thing in my "lone wolf" understanding.. I would certainly not miss a pair of uncomfortable shoes.. And for me, a hammer will always be a hammer.. You can drive a nail with it or crack open a walnut and enjoy the goodies inside.

As far as "media management" and "metadata" tags, collaboration on a large scale is simply overkill to me considering that if technology keeps evolving on its current trajectory, the general public will be able to produce "blockbuster" films with a cellphone and a tablet.. The industry continues to become more and more sophisticated to exclude the organic artists that occasionally sneak in the rear door and not have to conform to any one industry standard.. "Lone Wolf" as you put it.  

Blair Witch Project comes to mind when I think about the unpredictable nature of this field..

I forgot what editing proccess was involved for the movie, but no one expected what happen with that movie.

No one has to do anything other than understand what they want to do and make it happen.

+1 jr

it's unfortunate, but true. vegas is one of the most UNcollaborative nle's around, but it's brilliant for an indie producer such as myself. now that i've stared using resolve if asked i now say i use it rather than vegas, which is partly the truth as i now use vegas for rough cutting and maybe audio mixing if necessary. 

if magix gets some stability back into it i might revisit it for more, but at present it's relatiely unstable once the tl gets loaded and complicated. 

>>>>she proudly proclaimed that she and all of her colleagues use Final Cut Pro because it is an industry standard and everything else lacks the professional tools that the industry demands.<<<<

Simple rebuttal. You should have told her that AVID is the industry standard and not FCP.

For documentaries and smaller projects like this one, Vegas is faster and in some ways ( audio ) has far more pro tools than FCP

The only way to convince people thinking that anything "Industry standard" is always superior to any other tool is to present them with some reels of convincing quality stuff accomplished with this "inferior" tool... I never even involve in any  disputes on how inferior to the "big boys" Vegas is. And now when I'm getting higher and higher on the Resolve's steep learing curve, I'm getting even more certain that - even if for some tasks, even for a "lonely wolf" like myself, Resolve is much superior - I'll never quit using Vegas Pro for other tasks...

Piotr

@FPP  The problem is that a hammer isn't just a hammer. There are dozens of hammers, each of which has evolved uniquely to accomplish a specific job. True, you can hammer a finishing nail with a sledge hammer, but a carpenter's hammer will do the job more efficiently, with grace and style.

When people refer to "the industry standard" one might ask "what industry?" Feature film? Documentary? Industrial? Educational? For the work that I do, Vegas has put bread onto my table for the past fourteen years.

@FPP, I think I would have said something along the lines of 'while this is not the place and time to debate the pros and cons of different NLE's, as the director/editor, vegas is what I will use.' In short, tell her to STFU. If she was being that derogatory, I would guess she was trying to get your job. All she did was weaken your position with the rest of the crew.

Sometimes I can't keep my mouth shut though. That control seems to be waning as I get older.

I would have asked her how much time she had spent studying Vegas, and what did she think of the Application Scripting.

Every industry/hobby has its equipment snobs. Through high school and college, I was a photographer and constantly ran into people who thought if you didn't have a Nikon camera and kodachrome film, then there was no reason for you to exist. The same in TV. Final Cut was one of the late players to the game. I went to a conference/sales for FCP several years ago and they were excited that their latest version allowed the editor to use several different resolutions on the timeline at once. Vegas had been doing this since the beginning. Avid users won't even admit that other NLEs exist. I have used all of them and they all have their place, but not in my house. It is good to know them if you can afford it. Even if you just take a class and don't actually buy it. The more I know about other software and hardware, the more I can get out of the software I have.

   The differences used to be bigger when tape delivery was necessary. Vegas was never good at controlling other equipment like HDcams, VCRs, etc. (but neither was FCP. We had a heck of a time laying out to tape and being frame/field accurate with FCP. It just wouldn't happen unless you pre-rendered your whole timeline. Avid spent several years perfecting frame accurate output) 

But now that we are in a file delivery world, the differences are less obvious. Allowing interchange between Vegas and other NLEs is possible, it just requires time and some money. It would be a good opportunity for a programmer to find a niche in the TV world.

As far as "media management" and "metadata" tags, collaboration on a large scale is simply overkill to me considering that if technology keeps evolving on its current trajectory, the general public will be able to produce "blockbuster" films with a cellphone and a tablet.

Like I said, once you understand the collaboration and media management capabilities of these others tools, you see how it can help you cut through hours of dailies and come up with a rough cut quickly. I get that you don't appreciate it because you have never used this workflow. There is nothing wrong with that. But trust me, it's not overkill, it's a brilliant way to quickly organize your edit. Most the the edit decisions are made before any clips hit the timeline! It's difficult to work that way with Vegas Pro and I understand that you don't work that way. Just be careful trying to convince other people that they don't need to work that way because they do. It's like trying to tell an Editor that they don't need Assistant Editors. They do. That's how they work. Everyone has their job to do in a very soloed industry. Vegas Pro is not designed for this workflow. That doesn't mean Vegas Pro is not good... it's just not good for large collaborative projects and it is certainly unknown in that industry because of it.

It's not about a hammer being a hammer or a piano being a piano. She probably looked at you the same way an audience would if a concert pianist showed up at Carney Hall with a Casio keyboard, when you're expected to show up with a 9' Bösendorfer or Steinway Concert Grand piano. It's not that the Casio couldn't sound good. It's just not what people expect from a "professional" musician. 

Most movie industry professionals are using a certain set of tools that have become defacto standards over the years and you are not. Expect to get dirty looks. It doesn't make it right... but that's just the way it is. In fairness, they do it because every tool fits into a production pipeline. They can't just let everyone use whatever they want because "they don't work alone"! They have workflows set up for these tools and there is no time to play around with what works, when there are tight budgets and looming deadlines.

~jr

I am one that believes you should always have a backup tool, always good to learn more than one way to get a job done..whether in editing or anything else. We have Avid, premiere and vegas.we all have a working knowledge of each, I prefer vegas, not going to argue with anyone that it is better or worse than the other 2.If I had a client that insisted on their project being done in FCP, and they had a budget and project that was of high interest, we would buy a mac and learn FCP.

Why do people degrade Vegas just because they like what they use? 

Same reason Vegas users degrade Final Cut Pro.

JR is right about media management and large-scale projects, however...and I have no way of knowing if this other person falls into this category or not....I've met and worked with far more people who say the same thing (FCP industry standard, etc) and have no need for and no clue about FCP and large scale production. They just assume FCP is superior in *all* situations. 

 I understand that there is a "high end" way of producing/editing a polished, globally accepted and professionally respected video production.. Knowing what tools to use that will be efficient and requested by EP's all over the world. 

This whole video production thing can be an expensive hobby or a revenue earning business with many rewards if you learn how to buy just what is necessary to get the job done and not chase after the hype because the studios have ordained a certain way of doing things.

I have to admit though.. Once I really started to understand Sony Vegas Pro and all the possibilities in Post Production, My equipment needs evolved with respect to getting the "professional angle"and not the "home video shot".. And recognizing the need to implement professional audio recording and proper lighting.

If I may be so bold to say.. The editing software is only a small piece in the production process.

Maybe the "Chicken before the Egg" per say.

When I do color correction I don't have to send it to the "Colorization " guy. When I do audio modifications I don't have to send it to the "Audio" guy. When I do special effects I don't have to send it to the 'Special Effects" guy. When I do subtitles I don't have to send it to the "Subtitle" guy. When I do editing I don't have to send it to the "Editing" guy. When I do burning I don't have to send it to the "Burning" guy. When I get tired and have to take a break I don't have to have a "Breaking" guy. So Vegas/Magix Pro and I get along just fine.

JJK

>>>>Just be careful trying to convince other people that they don't need to work that way because they do. It's like trying to tell an Editor that they don't need Assistant Editors. They do.<<<<

Yeah, but the thing is they really don't. You will find this kind of idiocy in many industries. 10 people working 10 hours a day doing a job one guy can do in 4 hours per day. That one guy can complet project XYZ in less time than these 10 guys spend in meetings, wasting time babbling about what to do next.

Yeah, but the thing is they really don't. You will find this kind of idiocy in many industries. 10 people working 10 hours a day doing a job one guy can do in 4 hours per day. That one guy can complet project XYZ in less time than these 10 guys spend in meetings, wasting time babbling about what to do next.

😆LOL!! I second that! Too many companies, especially corporate companies are waisting time in meetings and nobody in the end wants to make a decission.

Yeah, but the thing is they really don't.

Well if you want to stay within budget, you're not going to pay a Senior Editor that makes $80K a year to sit and ingest and tag media with metadata for hours... you're going to pay an Assistant Editor that makes $30K a year. That frees up for editors for more important work.

You will find this kind of idiocy in many industries. 10 people working 10 hours a day doing a job one guy can do in 4 hours per day. That one guy can complet project XYZ in less time than these 10 guys spend in meetings, wasting time babbling about what to do next.

That's an insult to audio engineers, special effects artists, colorists, and finishing editors everywhere. I'm sorry but it is a rare person that is as talented as all of these people who have dedicated their lives to honing their craft. One guy cannot do it all at that scale.

Probably the #1 reason for video editors to get their videos rejected from Broadcast Stations is because the audio doesn't meet the proper specs. I see it all the time. Video editors are largely clueless about audio. I would venture to guess that less than 5% of Vegas Pro editors even have the audio equipment necessary to properly mix sound. The same can be said about Color Grading. Most editors wouldn't know where to start.

~jr

Oh yeah, our company made its biggest money the last few years fixing the errors of the one man shops. Video way out of spec, audio problems, colors off the scale. I agree with JR. No one can be an expert in all of the arts of video.

I think it'd be a different story if you could say that you've completed a handful of short films on FCP and a handful on Vegas Pro. Then your opinion would have some weight.

I work for some people who've completed and sold a handful of feature length docs. They can edit, but they've always brought in a professional editor for the jobs because a) The editors don't produce so they have a lot more time logged editing and b) they bring another perspective to the project. These men and women almost always can work in more than one edit environment (although Vegas never comes up in the conversation).

For a producer, a big consideration is that the editor should be replaceable if necessary. They may quit, you may fire them, they may die, you may kill them. Whatever happens, you want them editing in an environment where they can find another editor.

By the same token, if you're an editor you may want to work in an environment that would allow you to replace yourself. You may want to quit at the same time they want to fire you. If you can recommend a replacement you can then bow out gracefully without reputational damage.

>>>>>That's an insult to audio engineers, special effects artists, colorists, and finishing editors everywhere. I'm sorry but it is a rare person that is as talented as all of these people who have dedicated their lives to honing their craft. One guy cannot do it all at that scale.<<<<

Nothing against audio guys they are usually necessary, although it is not difficult for a "video" guy to learn that part.

As far as colorists and finishing and assistant editors go, those are unnecessary bullshit jobs these days. You really need a guy who will make your whole movie go orange, yellow or teal? I can have my pets do that.

There are talented musicians who can write songs and play bass, drums, guitars and keys all by themselves and record all this. That is about 10 times harder than handling the whole editing/producing a short film or a documentary. So yeah, anybody with some talent willing to do it can do it by themselves.

I understand that there are certain workflows people are used to, but nobody says you have to follow them.

 

 

As far as colorists and finishing and assistant editors go, those are unnecessary bullshit jobs these days. You really need a guy who will make your whole movie go orange, yellow or teal? I can have my pets do that.

 

 

 

Is that what you think a colorist is?  This comment puts your other comments in perspective for me.  

Yeah I do.  On the audio side I also call bullshit on "fix it in the mix" too.  For me it's get it right from the start and eliminate any need for fixing later. Not only do you save time, but end result is better.

Same goes for video.