VP16 - Rendering at lower bit rate than requested

Qoncussion wrote on 1/10/2019, 10:39 AM

I've been having an ongoing problem when Rendering a video in VP16. I am using: "MAGIX AVC/AAC MP4 > Custom Settings" to render. I set the Average bit rate to 28,000,000, and the Maximum to 32,000,000 - expecting a file that is around 28Mb/s. However, Vegas is only rendering the file at around 11Mb/s. Following are my settings. Can someone tell me how to get Vegas to render at the requested bit rate?

Using ^^ these settings - here are the file properties for the video file that was rendered - notice the Total bit rate at around 11.5Mb/s.

Any help would be appreciated!

PC SPEC'S
CPU~AMD FX-9590 8-Core 4.7GHz
GPU~AMD Radeon R9 290X
RAM~16GB G.SKILL 1866 Trident X
CHILL~CORSAIR Hydro Liquid Cooler
C:~Samsung 850 EVO | Windows 8.1
D:~6TB RAID 0 | 2X 3TB@7200 RPM 
E:-H: 4X 7200 RPM
Software: Vegas Pro 16 on Windows 8.1

Comments

Musicvid wrote on 1/10/2019, 10:49 AM

Sounds like your content has a lot of stills or low-motion images?

In this case the Interframe encoder only writes bits to the first frame and the rest is pretty much just instructions until the next change in content. It uses only what it needs to get the job done.

I've gotten final renders down to 250 Kbps even though the encoder is set at 25,000 Kbps.

Qoncussion wrote on 1/10/2019, 10:56 AM

Sounds like your content has a lot of still images?

In this case the encoder only writes bits to the first frame and the rest is pretty much just instructions until the next change in content. It uses only what it needs to get the job done.

There are just a few still images near the beginning. The total video is nearly 1 hour and 40 minutes in length. The still images account for less than 1 minute. I'm not sure why it would render the file at less than half of the set Mbps value.

PC SPEC'S
CPU~AMD FX-9590 8-Core 4.7GHz
GPU~AMD Radeon R9 290X
RAM~16GB G.SKILL 1866 Trident X
CHILL~CORSAIR Hydro Liquid Cooler
C:~Samsung 850 EVO | Windows 8.1
D:~6TB RAID 0 | 2X 3TB@7200 RPM 
E:-H: 4X 7200 RPM
Software: Vegas Pro 16 on Windows 8.1

ryclark wrote on 1/10/2019, 11:19 AM

Remember that the lower bit rate in the Vegas render settings is for Average bit rate, not minimum. Doesn't necessarily mean that it will render at that bit rate.

Qoncussion wrote on 1/10/2019, 11:30 AM

Remember that the lower bit rate in the Vegas render settings is for Average bit rate, not minimum. Doesn't necessarily mean that it will render at that bit rate.

My original question still stands. Averaging 28Mbps does not equal 11.5Mbps :) - Wouldn't you think that when setting the render to 28Mbps, the file should at least be close to that number? 11.5 is not even close. It's not even close to being half of the requested file size.

Last changed by Qoncussion on 1/10/2019, 11:32 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

PC SPEC'S
CPU~AMD FX-9590 8-Core 4.7GHz
GPU~AMD Radeon R9 290X
RAM~16GB G.SKILL 1866 Trident X
CHILL~CORSAIR Hydro Liquid Cooler
C:~Samsung 850 EVO | Windows 8.1
D:~6TB RAID 0 | 2X 3TB@7200 RPM 
E:-H: 4X 7200 RPM
Software: Vegas Pro 16 on Windows 8.1

john_dennis wrote on 1/10/2019, 11:41 AM
  • Are you happy with the way the video from this encode looks?

If "yes", then we're done. Based on a recent thread, AMD VCE does a very good job with quality, speed and use of bits.

If "no", then select a different Encode Mode that will allow you set a constant bit rate that will make you feel more comfortable. Or select a different encoder that will allow you to change the group of pictures, number of P-frames, B-frames etc. The combinations are infinite, if you're willing to experiment.

  • "Wouldn't you think that when setting the render to 28Mbps, the file should at least be close to that number?" 

          No.

Musicvid wrote on 1/10/2019, 12:26 PM

Oh, it's your hardware encoder, which makes the unpredictability factor worse. See if checking two-pass gets you closer.

Qoncussion wrote on 1/10/2019, 12:30 PM

Oh, it's your hardware encoder, which makes the unpredictability factor worse. See if checking two-pass gets you closer.

I've used two-pass in the past - but - if you look at the first image I posted in my OP above - Two-pass is greyed out (can't be selected). Do you think that I might see better results with CPU only?

PC SPEC'S
CPU~AMD FX-9590 8-Core 4.7GHz
GPU~AMD Radeon R9 290X
RAM~16GB G.SKILL 1866 Trident X
CHILL~CORSAIR Hydro Liquid Cooler
C:~Samsung 850 EVO | Windows 8.1
D:~6TB RAID 0 | 2X 3TB@7200 RPM 
E:-H: 4X 7200 RPM
Software: Vegas Pro 16 on Windows 8.1

Former user wrote on 1/10/2019, 12:41 PM

@Qoncussion I brought this issue up shortly after Nvenc hardware encoding was implemented. Probably similar for Vce.

To get the output bit rate you require just experiment by selecting a small loop region and keep modifying the settings. When you get close to your desired output save it as a new template.

Its as if hardware encoding is less linear and more like discrete steps sometimes.

The default settings in the hardware encoder render templates I think are more a guide than what you will actually get.

Non hardware encoding appears to be more linear, but it still won’t give you exactly what you enter.

Eagle Six wrote on 1/10/2019, 3:34 PM

@Qoncussion if your requirement is 28 Mb/s, use Magix AVC format, change the template to 'constant' bite rate and select 28,000,000. Render and done!

EDIT: Sorry I had too many things going on......I originally thought your requirement was needing 28 Mb/s, but reading through again it appears you just want to know why with the settings you selected you did not get 28 Mb/s, which others have already answered.

Last changed by Eagle Six on 1/10/2019, 4:04 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

System Specs......
Corsair Obsidian Series 450D ATX Mid Tower
Asus X99-A II LGA 2011-v3, Intel X99 SATA 6 Gb/s USB 3.1/3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
Intel Core i7-6800K 15M Broadwell-E, 6 core 3.4 GHz LGA 2011-v3 (overclocked 20%)
64GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200
Corsair Hydro Series H110i GTX 280mm Extreme Performance Liquid CPU Cooler
MSI Radeon R9 390 DirectX 12 8GB Video Card
Corsair RMx Series RM750X 740W 80 Plus Gold power pack
Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2 boot drive
Corsair Neutron XT 2.5 480GB SATA III SSD - video work drive
Western Digitial 1TB 7200 RPM SATA - video work drive
Western Digital Black 6TB 7200 RPM SATA 6Bb/s 128MB Cache 3.5 data drive

Bluray Disc burner drive
2x 1080p monitors
Microsoft Window 10 Pro
DaVinci Resolve Studio 16 pb2
SVP13, MVP15, MVP16, SMSP13, MVMS15, MVMSP15, MVMSP16

john_dennis wrote on 1/11/2019, 9:17 AM

In spite of my low expectations mentioned earlier, when I ran a high motion video through the Magix AVC encoder in Vegas Pro 15 with the template set to match yours (AMD VCE 32/28 Default Peak Constrained), I got close to the target bit rate. Others could check Vegas 16.

  

j-v wrote on 1/11/2019, 9:59 AM

I tested the red car bennchmark with the published templates, but I have no AMD.
Besides the default MC template I have for the supposed rendersettings two other possiblities, the Magix AVC QSV en NVENC options, which I used both.
Here are my screenshots of the rendersettings and the rendered MediaInfo ot the exportfiles
QSV

NVENC

 

met vriendelijke groet
Marten

Camera : Pan X900, GoPro Hero7 Hero Black, DJI Osmo Pocket, Samsung Galaxy A8
Desktop :MB Gigabyte Z390M, W10 home version 2004 build 19041.264, i7 9700 4.7Ghz,16 DDR4 GB RAM, Gef. GTX 1660 Ti.
Laptop  :Asus ROG GL753VD, W10 home version 2004 build 19041.264, CPU i7 7700HQ, 8 GB RAM, GeF. GTX 1050 (2 GB) + Int. HD Graphics 630(2GB).VP 17,18 and VMS PL 16,17 are installed, all latest builds
Both Nvidia GPU's have driver version 456.38 Studio Driver.
TV      :LG 4K 55EG960V

My slogan is: BE OR BECOME A STEMCELL DONOR !!!

Eagle Six wrote on 1/11/2019, 10:14 AM

I used VP16 and the same AMD VCE settings as John_dennis and Qoncussion with the the following bite rate settings (and of course different source media)......

Max 32,000,000 Avg 28,000,000, Overall bit rate = 22.6 Mb/s

Max 40,000,000 Avg 30,000,000, Overall bit rate = 25.2 Mb/s

Max 50,000,000 Avg 40,000,000, Overall bit rate = 29.7 Mb/s

System Specs......
Corsair Obsidian Series 450D ATX Mid Tower
Asus X99-A II LGA 2011-v3, Intel X99 SATA 6 Gb/s USB 3.1/3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
Intel Core i7-6800K 15M Broadwell-E, 6 core 3.4 GHz LGA 2011-v3 (overclocked 20%)
64GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200
Corsair Hydro Series H110i GTX 280mm Extreme Performance Liquid CPU Cooler
MSI Radeon R9 390 DirectX 12 8GB Video Card
Corsair RMx Series RM750X 740W 80 Plus Gold power pack
Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2 boot drive
Corsair Neutron XT 2.5 480GB SATA III SSD - video work drive
Western Digitial 1TB 7200 RPM SATA - video work drive
Western Digital Black 6TB 7200 RPM SATA 6Bb/s 128MB Cache 3.5 data drive

Bluray Disc burner drive
2x 1080p monitors
Microsoft Window 10 Pro
DaVinci Resolve Studio 16 pb2
SVP13, MVP15, MVP16, SMSP13, MVMS15, MVMSP15, MVMSP16

Qoncussion wrote on 1/11/2019, 10:27 AM

I am wondering if there might be something funky with my AMD setup... I ran a test at ~ Max: 60,000,000, Avg: 50,000,000. It rendered at around 10Mbps (10,000,000). Not sure what's going on. I switched from AMD VCE to Mainconcept, and it rendered right in line with the settings

PC SPEC'S
CPU~AMD FX-9590 8-Core 4.7GHz
GPU~AMD Radeon R9 290X
RAM~16GB G.SKILL 1866 Trident X
CHILL~CORSAIR Hydro Liquid Cooler
C:~Samsung 850 EVO | Windows 8.1
D:~6TB RAID 0 | 2X 3TB@7200 RPM 
E:-H: 4X 7200 RPM
Software: Vegas Pro 16 on Windows 8.1

j-v wrote on 1/11/2019, 10:36 AM

In VPro 16 the plain MC AVC cannot be used for GPU rendering, so all is done by the CPU, so also the results cannot be compared between the GPU- and only CPU renders.

Last changed by j-v on 1/12/2019, 11:29 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

met vriendelijke groet
Marten

Camera : Pan X900, GoPro Hero7 Hero Black, DJI Osmo Pocket, Samsung Galaxy A8
Desktop :MB Gigabyte Z390M, W10 home version 2004 build 19041.264, i7 9700 4.7Ghz,16 DDR4 GB RAM, Gef. GTX 1660 Ti.
Laptop  :Asus ROG GL753VD, W10 home version 2004 build 19041.264, CPU i7 7700HQ, 8 GB RAM, GeF. GTX 1050 (2 GB) + Int. HD Graphics 630(2GB).VP 17,18 and VMS PL 16,17 are installed, all latest builds
Both Nvidia GPU's have driver version 456.38 Studio Driver.
TV      :LG 4K 55EG960V

My slogan is: BE OR BECOME A STEMCELL DONOR !!!

NickHope wrote on 1/11/2019, 11:14 PM

I am wondering if there might be something funky with my AMD setup... I ran a test at ~ Max: 60,000,000, Avg: 50,000,000. It rendered at around 10Mbps (10,000,000). Not sure what's going on. I switched from AMD VCE to Mainconcept, and it rendered right in line with the settings

I read that your R9 290X has VCE 2.0. That's quite an early version and it's not really a surprise if there are quirks. VCE is up to version 4.0 now in Vega models. You might try a newer or older driver than your current one to see if that makes a difference.

Musicvid wrote on 1/11/2019, 11:39 PM

Since the advent of on-cpu encoders (actually since cq/crf software encoding) average bitrates and thus file sizes have become really hard to nail down with any consistency.

Reason: There is no longer a need for a time-consuming scan pass, thus no chance for the encoder to anticipate and adjust its game plan. Having become a guess-and-go situation, it will probably get no better, except in deference to slower legacy software solutions, which retain more quality, as well.

It would probably be better if your render instructions said, "Up to 28Mbps," Also, the same advances in these newer encoders put the classic "more bits = more quality" cliche at risk of extinction. It ain't that way any more.

Former user wrote on 1/12/2019, 6:20 AM

@john_dennis the best 2 readings you get for VCE, top of both columns, fall just above and below the reading I got for BruceUSA's sample rendered VCE clip. I guess given two different clip samples used, two different Radeon software versions it does show a fair bit of consistency in the VCE results.

 

BruceUSA

 

When I do any of these HORQM tests I always set the hardware, say Nvenc render settings at vbr best quality.  After all it is a comparison with CPU rendering although not exclusively, each other as well.

What's also important is how recent the VCE version is, as Nick mentions.  I'd imagine the BruceUSA version was most recent given he has a very modern rig.

I hope to get use of a buddys laptop next week that has Vce enabled, I think via the CPU.  If so i'll post and update my "General purpose" testing with that.  I'll post the VCE version in use too once I can establish it.

Update ... I couldn’t get Vce to render at a similar data rate to what was already done with the the other renders in “General purpose”

General purpose

Unfortunately while doing the BruceUSA tests I set the data rates for other renders a small bit higher than the VCE clip.  This needs to be taken into account.  Obviously I don't know what quality render settings were used for the BruceUSA VCE rendered clip.

Ive updated the BruceUSA info above with a laptop that's VCE version 3.1, the data rate is a bit higher.

Shows theres not that much difference between say Nvenc, Vce etc, its data rate dependent also.

Some updated tables ... https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xh8vkexgxif53m5/AAAH135JcFgIuqoQgFp5-o1za?dl=0

BruceUSA wrote on 1/12/2019, 7:39 AM

JN. The VCE rendered clip at default template. I will run some testing later on today between VCE 2.0 and VCE 4.0. I got two computers AMD system VCE 4.0 and Intel system with VCE 2.0 AMD R 9 290X.

 

Former user wrote on 1/12/2019, 9:05 AM

@BruceUSA Truly excellent. I hope you realise what you’ve started here😀

BruceUSA wrote on 1/12/2019, 10:20 AM

@BruceUSA Truly excellent. I hope you realise what you’ve started here😀

Wow. I am speechless. :).

BruceUSA wrote on 1/12/2019, 1:17 PM

VCE 4.0 render settings @ Max 50,000,000. Avg 28,000,000. The file bit rate read by Mediainfo at 16.4 MB/s

VCE 4.0 render settings @ Max 28,000,000 Avg 20,000,000. The file bit rate read by Mediainfo at 15.1 MB/s

VCE 2.0 render settings @ Max 50,000,000 Avg 20,000,000. The file bit rate read by Mediainfo at 16.5 MB/s

VCE 2.0 render settings @ Max 28,000,000 Avg 20,000,000. The file bit rate read by Mediainfo at 16.3 MB/s

 

VCE 4.0 render Default settings Max 24,000/ Avg 12,000. The file bit rate read by Mediainfo at 10.6 MB/s

VCE 2.0 render default settings Max 24,000/Avg 12,000/ The file bit rate read by Mediainfo at 10.4 MB/s.

 

Seem to me the most you can get out of VCE is 16.4 MB/s with Avg 28,000,000/Max 50,000,000. Any higher will get error. I don't see the point of changing the default settings to any higher. I imported both files onto Vegas and set the compositing mode to different. The default settings video file look very good to me on both files VCE 2.0/4.0

The video file is from SONY Project Red Car.

Former user wrote on 1/12/2019, 4:22 PM

@BruceUSA Indeed. The higher data rate (24,572) you produced with your benchmark was of course a 4K clip.

NickHope wrote on 1/13/2019, 12:20 AM

I've added this to the known issues post.

@BruceUSA (or anyone else) What happens if you set bit rates significantly lower than 10-16 MB/s?

@Qoncussion Please report the issue via a support request, and link to this post in your request.