[VP17 321] Quantize bug on stretched events deletion

nonam3 wrote on 10/9/2019, 7:32 PM

To reproduce:

- launch VP17 321
- set Quantize to frames
- enable auto ripple (affected tracks)
- enable snapping / snap to markers / snap to all events
- add auto generated media, tested with SolidColor, add i.e 5-15 to track (copy / paste is ok, but harder to reproduce, happens more often when events are "unique"), move one after another without any space in between
 

Task:

Delete events and see how rest / ones in between / are laid out after deletion.
At this point it all works correctly when one event ends another starts without overlapping each other.

Issue:

Time stretch events (CTRL + LMB press and move on event end, probably doesn't matter but tested using end).
Do this for few events to see issue more clearly it's important that these events are one after another.

Delete stretched events.
At some point one of events will overlap end of previous one (one that was located before lastly deleted one).
Or to put it simpler next event will move before start position of deleted one, this is for situation where there is no event before deleted one.

Expected:

No overlapping / start position shift.
After deletion events should be placed at start position of deleted one.

PS. didn't noticed this issue on VP16 361

Comments

fr0sty wrote on 10/9/2019, 8:38 PM

Fantastic bug report! Very detailed. Thank you!

Musicvid wrote on 10/9/2019, 9:36 PM

Do you have Auto Ripple enabled? If so, try it without.

nonam3 wrote on 10/9/2019, 9:47 PM

Do you have Auto Ripple enabled? If so, try it without.

And how would You reproduce this bug ???

Without Auto Ripple events stays exactly where is was there is no move of any events whatsoever upon deletion of any event on track so no calculation for new position and no bug right ???

Grazie wrote on 10/9/2019, 10:33 PM

@nonam3 - I appreciate and applaud your Bug Reporting methodology. I wish others followed your example. When you did this in VP16, did you also used GenMed? You weren’t using any Timecoded Media? I have to ask.

I’m definitely going to attempt a repro of this, this morning.

nonam3 wrote on 10/9/2019, 11:17 PM

@Grazie
Timecoded Media - no.
VP16 - yes, I used it with Auto Generated Media (solid color) and with real video, same setup - no issue at all

To be clear here - this happens on every event type (well at least group video + one audio track or AutoGenMed) and only in VP17. Used auto generated to make it easier to reproduce.

To me it seams like this is bug either with:

a) quantize is applied when moving next event ignoring Auto Ripple tool, so instead of moving next start event timeline to either end of previous one or to start of deleted one (if no media) vegas quantize location assuing (incorrectly) it was between frame boundary. I do assume that expected behaviour when Quantize and Auto Ripple are enabled is that quantization is ignored upon deletion and next event is snapped to start position of deleted event.

b) problem with threshold for frame boundary detection after move so quantize kick in for very small differences (floating point roundness ???)

c) when Time Stretching events VP17 either won't quantize at all or do this incorrectly (although from time line stand point events ends are located at frame boundary) so when deletion with Auto Ripple kicks in another quantization is triggered and result is incorrect. It result with event shifts to one frame before deleted event start | previous event end.

PS. project FPS is 29,970

Grazie wrote on 10/10/2019, 12:57 AM

@nonam3 - I’m “spit-balling” here..... See if placing some TC Media on the TL makes a difference. OR render just one GenMed item.

nonam3 wrote on 10/10/2019, 8:28 AM

@Grazie

TC Media doesn't matter to me as I need this to work how it worked with VP16. Rendering has nothing to do with this issue well it has as there will be either shift by 1 frame or fast smooth fade but that will be unnoticeable.

At this point I will probably just revert back to VP16.

Main question here is am I only affected or is this reproducible and recognizable as an error so I can hope it will be fixed in near feature ???

NickHope wrote on 10/10/2019, 12:05 PM

I'm managing to reproduce this issue in both VP16 build 424 and VP17 build 321. 29.97fps project.

VEGASDerek wrote on 10/10/2019, 2:34 PM

We've reproduced the problem here and will be investigating the problem.

Dee wrote on 10/10/2019, 5:50 PM

Thanks for your feedback, the issue has been determined and a fix will be in a future update.

NickHope wrote on 10/11/2019, 12:23 AM

@VEGASDerek @Dee It seems like this issue may be the same as, or closely related to, this one. Please consider that one at the same time.

Dee wrote on 10/11/2019, 12:31 AM

Hey Nick, in fact that’s the bug in our database I’ve been tracking and this thread helped reinforce prioritizing it for fixing. Thanks for referencing it here.

NickHope wrote on 11/20/2019, 3:57 AM

This is fixed in VEGAS Pro 17 Update 2 (build 353).

nonam3 wrote on 8/17/2020, 10:04 AM

Unfortunately this is not fixed with 17 Update 2 (build 353) as I can reproduce this issue in latest version of Vegas 18 (build 284).

michael-harrison wrote on 8/17/2020, 10:14 AM

@nonam3 have you verified it not fixed in 17-353?

If it's broken in 18, that could just mean a regression snuck in during the development for 18 and that it *was* fixed in 17-353

System 1:

Windows 10
i9-10850K 10 Core
128.0G RAM
Nvidia RTX 3060 Studio driver [most likely latest]
Resolution        3840 x 2160 x 60 hertz
Video Memory 12G GDDR5

 

System 2:

Lenovo Yoga 720
Core i7-7700 2.8Ghz quad core, 8 logical
16G ram
Intel HD 630 gpu 1G vram
Nvidia GTX 1050 gpu 2G vram

 

nonam3 wrote on 8/17/2020, 10:48 AM

Tested in both 17 (build 353) and 18 (build 284).

Didn't reported it earlier as I missed this task being marked as fixed.

Also I did noticed that version 18 performs worse than 16 and 17. Task like selecting range by double clicking on space between events or on event so range is automatically selected take longer and Ui feel more sluggish (slower Ui response). The project had multiple track with events in total over 100 events (test project is music video with source material cut across 2 source video files).

Spec: Threadripper 3960x, 32 GB RAM (CL14-14-14-34 @ 3600MHz), GTX 1080 Ti, I/O all SSD (Samsung products, from NVME 2TB - OS, to 4 x EVO 4TB - storage - this is where source material is located), Windows 10 P, latest GPU drivers.

nonam3 wrote on 10/17/2020, 9:59 AM

Was checking latest version: VP 18 build 334 and issue is still present.

Uploaded video showing issue (shown at 1:03) in action:

This was recorded on VM with fresh install (no install prior) so everything is default no custom settings etc.

nonam3 wrote on 11/3/2020, 12:02 PM

@NickHope

Unfortunately this issue is not fixed yet, shown issue in above video. And yes this issue and that one are the same.

Can You take another look at this and maybe re-check ? Thanks in advance.

PS. AFAIKT latest working version, for me, is VP16 361 and issue was introduced in between this and VP16 424 (according to Your post, didn't tested that version personally, VP17 and up do have issue)

NickHope wrote on 11/3/2020, 12:12 PM

Will have a look tomorrow. Sorry I missed those posts from earlier this year.

NickHope wrote on 11/4/2020, 2:33 AM

@nonam3 I can't reproduce this issue. Please upload a sample project to cloud service and give precise instructions on which events to delete. VP16 project would be best so it can be tested in VP16, 17 & 18.

nonam3 wrote on 11/4/2020, 4:43 PM

How to reproduce:

1. launch Vegas 9it will create default project, that's ok)
2. enable options -> Quantize to Frame
3. enable options -> Ripple -> Auto Riple (Affect Tracks)
4. go to Media generator tab, select i.e. Solid color
4a. start drag & drop to time line, onto same track
4b. scale events so theirs playback rate is different than 1.0 (leave some as 1.0 some scale, random)
4c. move some of these events apart, so i.e. create groups of 2 | 4 | 6 events, so some are next to each other some are apart
5. duplicate them, I do select all events -> CTRL+X (cut) -> CTRL + B (create a new copy of source media) Number of times to paste i.e. 25 ( I ended up with project of length over 1 hour)
6. zoom out to whole time line and move selection to middle
7. for convenience select event by double clicking (so selection is range with start at current start event)
8. start deleting events by clicking on event that currently in selection range
9. observe start position of current event, it will shift by 1 "quantization frame"

With VP18 build 373 I was able to reproduce this only once (tested for over 1hour) when project fps was 29,97. Moving to 59,940 (Double NTSC) I was unable to reproduce this, but here I did noticed that when selected range (by double clicking it) selection was set to i.e. 00:02:11;01 but when moving arrow left | right (left in this case) time code changed to 00:02:11;00 but selection itself did not move.

When changing project FPS to 14,985 (Half NTSC) I'm able to reproduce this immediately.

The root of the issue is behaviour of Quantize to the frame. In VP16 when deleting events quantize is probably ignored (with I consider correct behaviour) from VP16++ it's align events when deleting. Disabling quantize result in correct behaviour.

So the main question is how event deletion should behave when Quantize to frames and Auto ripple are enabled ? Should new event be placed at quantized boundary (IMO this is incorrect) or should quantization be ignored (like in VP16 apparently) with I consider correct.

NickHope wrote on 11/5/2020, 3:32 AM

Sorry but I'm still unable to reproduce this in VP18 build 373, even with project frame rate of 14.985. That's why I suggested you upload a VP16 project that you know will display the problem when opened in VP17/18 (along with instructions for which event(s) to delete to show the problem).

nonam3 wrote on 10/30/2021, 5:05 PM

@NickHope

Thank You for Your time. I do understand that sometimes bug is triggered in certain way and not reproduced, or easily reproduced, on other machine.

I also tried latest build (Vegas 19) and it's still there.

The problem is that there is nothing special in the file, it's just normally generated media with solid clips in it, and I don't believe that this is related to file itself but to the algorithm that is responsible for the ripple effect (moving events after deletion) and I was able to reproduce this from 17 onwards and done so on bare metal and VM (completely fresh install).

The issue is shown in video attached to one of my previous posts: https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/vp17-321-quantize-bug-on-stretched-events-deletion--117434/#ca775460

Bug is revealed at 1:03 - You will see that after event deletion (using Delete key) there is gap between events (maybe Delete event command and shortcut is wired to different functions ??? and that cause issue).