The test settings were exactly the same in both vp17 and vp18 including full range in render settings
In VP17 there is no full range render setting. This is a new option of VP18. This difference is what you see in your MediaInfo screenshots.
VP17 always uses either limited range meta data or no color range meta data at all (which in the end is same as using limited range meta data). This was one of the very rare cases what Vegas Pro versions before VP18 did wrong (in case the editor did not ensure the real levels used in the project conformed to limited levels).
I'm pondering wether the VP18 output of a full range float point project actually is right or wrong. I think it's right but you made the text levels wrong (assumed the black and whites should be deepest black and brightest white).
If you are in a full range float point project everything will be based on computer levels (just right as in an 8 bit full range project). Then when you render with full range meta data, your data will be left at computer levels. And when you render with limited range meta data, your output data will be transformed to video levels.
But apart from this base thingy, your results are exactly what to be expected. There are two video files which core levels are both the same. But now only one of your files has the full range meta data, so only this one file will advise systems which use this meta data not to transform this levels. If you want both files look the same, apply same meta data.
In VP17 there is no full range render setting. This is a new option of VP18. This difference is what you see in your MediaInfo screenshots.
But surely a 32bit float full range project, should be full range regardless if using the a true black colour like from the media generator on render using the full range setting in render settings, that`s what I cant quite get my head around, or am I missing something?
Could you share for download your VP17 base project on which you started the test renders shown at the beginning of this topic?
Sure, here you go
But surely a 32bit float full range project, should be full range regardless if using the a true black colour
Mark, one anomoly of using a 32 bit float project is different levels dependent on your core settings. We've documented these for years, since when people used to claim it was a substitute for the studio levels filter. It's not.
Why again, are you starting with a 32 bit float project for 8 bit output? Please uncomplicate your inquiries by not introducing red herrings, and you'll get better responses.
@Musicvid becuase in VP17 It was the only way to get the footage to look like it did direct from camera...
Direct from camera in windows film and tv player
Vegas Pro 8bit
Vegas Pro 32bit float full range
And for good measure HitFilmPro 15
Vegas Pro 17 8bit is night and day compared to others and original footage.
OK, complicate your life then. I can assure you proper levels in 8 bit project given proper settings. You may be making a fundamental, but altogether common mistake by insisting that "It [32 bit] was the only way to get the footage to look like it did direct from camera..." That has been investigated years ago, and it is absolutely not the case.
This may help your understanding, and best of luck. When you are ready to show us 8 bit output from 8 bit projects in V17 with correct settings, we can start over. If there is something different about V18 other than the new options, this is not the way to go about identifying it.
https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/pc-to-tv-levels-a-comedy-of-errors--107325/
OK, complicate your life then. I can assure you proper levels in 8 bit project given proper settings. You may be making a fundamental, but altogether common mistake by insisting that "It was the only way to get the footage to look like it did direct from camera..." That is absolutely not the case.
This may help your understanding, and best of luck. When you are ready to show us 8 bit output from 8 bit projects in V17 with correct settings, we can start over.
Fair enough, no need to be condescending about it though.
If repeating myself four times is condescending, then you're in good hands with Marco. His patience and knowledge exceed mine. Welcome to the forums.
Marco. wrote on 8/8/2020, 10:55 AM
No, stop. This is trickier because you used a float point project as base.
To render correct delivery levels in VP17 with RGB source, one needs to start with an 8 bit project, and after editing but before rendering, apply the Computer RGB->Studio RGB Levels filter to the Output buss.
Using a 32-bit float project is not a substitute. Bet you didn't know that?
“After so many years of using Vegas Pro, were all gonna have to to short test renders before hand, to make sure were getting what we see in the preview window.”
That’s never been a bad idea.
“After so many years of using Vegas Pro, were all gonna have to to short test renders before hand, to make sure were getting what we see in the preview window.”
That’s never been a bad idea.
Very true. Another reason I used 32bit float alot was when adding FX or colour, contrast adjustments etc to the footage, what I saw in the preview was exactly what was rendered. When in 8bit you apply your fx, forget to change back then render, so I always assumed 32bit was better and was stuck in that habit. VP18 addresses this with 8bit full range. Like I said earlier in this thread I`m not as pro as some of you guys & gals. I just love filming and editing.
But surely a 32bit float full range project, should be full range regardless if using the a true black colour
Mark, one anomoly of using a 32 bit float project is different levels dependent on your core settings. We've documented these for years, since when people used to claim it was a substitute for the studio levels filter. It's not.
Why again, are you starting with a 32 bit float project for 8 bit output? Please uncomplicate your inquiries by not introducing red herrings, and you'll get better responses.
@Musicvid Is dead on. I had a similar thread about a year ago.
For Vegas 17 the below thread is what finally helped me wrap my head around what the hell was going on with my levels.
But with VEGAS 18 there really is no thinking! just use 8 bit full range and EDIT!
For 32-bit floatingpoint editing, I have a special experience: if you put the ColorCurves plugin onto video bus track (and do nothing, just put it there), your output-rendering will be hold in Rec709-level overall.
Without this plugin, your output-rendering is generally at Rec709-level, but where an alpha area or overexposure (e.g. transition-FX) on the timeline sweeps, there the signal goes beyond the Rec709-level.
I find no explanation for this magic. I just do it.
@_Mark_
I just had the chance to check the project you provided. I rendered it both from VP17 as as well as from VP18 one time with render meta data "limited" and another time with render meta data "full". I then checked the levels.
All is fine with these levels, they are the same in all three files both rendered from VP17 as well as rendered from VP18. The only difference - of course - is the differing meta data which is how it was set for the rendering.
Now in VP18 this meta data will be ignored if you use the legacy 8 bit mode (just like it is in VP17) and the meta data will be used if you use the 8 bit full level mode.
It's absolutely correct this way.
You may be still confused because all levels are set to 0 - 100 % after rendering which is not what you saw in your source project. This is because you used the float point full level option instead the video level option. This is how these two float point options define black and white. It's correct, though.
One can make video editing harder as it actually is by using a float point based project, but using a full level linear float point project instead of video level float point makes it even much harder if there is no real need to use this particular option.
What you experienced with the core Color Curves plug-in is a known limitation. Dependend on for what reason one decides to use float point processing, the use of Color Curves FX could be a no-go because it will pretend data beyond 0-1 to be processed (which usually is one of the main adavantages of float point processing).
Try using Graide Color Curves instead. This one should be fine in float point projects.
Many thanks everyone for your time and effort much appreciated, I was obviously stuck in a bad habit, like I said i`m no pro, but learning all the time and I understand a bit more about the new 8bit full in VP18 and why it is actually a really good new feature. Thanks once again :-)
[Offtopic]
Another example of what Color Curves does in float point projects:
If you download this zipped EXR grafic file, unzip and place it into a Vegas Pro floating point project (either video levels or full range with gamma 2.2, View Transform disabled) it is very easy to 1:1 recover the source information by lowering the luma till 25 % (simply drag down the Event's opacity level to 25 % to see).
Now apply the core Color Curves FX with default settings and all information is gone. Do same with Graide Color Curves instead and data keeps being recovered again.
Btw, of course in 8 bit projects it is impossible to recover the source data. It solely works in float point projects.
Edit:
I just see if you use the Color Curves of the Grading Panel instead of the regular Color Curves FX it would also keep the float point property with data being able to get recovered.