VP18 - Notes on the 8 bit full level option

Comments

AVsupport wrote on 8/8/2020, 6:40 PM

whatever the color space naming, they are identical in both cases (8 and 10-bit) but lead to different results in VP. And that's the issue here, no?

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

16GB (2x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Marco. wrote on 8/9/2020, 1:58 AM

"does Y'CbCr mean the "same" as L'A'B (Lab)?"

No, it's a different approach to define color.

Marco. wrote on 8/9/2020, 2:01 AM

"they are identical in both cases (8 and 10-bit) but lead to different results in VP. And that's the issue here, no?"

They are displayed differently because they have different meta data for the color range. And both versions behave as expected then (due to its meta data).

AVsupport wrote on 8/10/2020, 8:27 AM

"And both versions behave as expected then (due to its meta data).

Yes they do. Apologies, this getting a little confusing at times

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

16GB (2x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

joost-berk wrote on 8/11/2020, 2:47 PM

Just another question on this topic from me. Do we still need to use "Broadcast Colors" plugin now Vegas corrects the RGB full or limited range for the input?

Vegas Pro user since version 1.2

OS: Windows 10 Pro (Latest version)

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3800X

RAM: 32GB DDR4 3200MHz

GPU: Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Super 8GB GDDR (Latest Studio Driver)

Monitoring: Black Magic Design DeckLink SDI 4K (or Nvidia HDMI for 4K HDR)

Audio: M-Audio M-Track Eight ASIO

Controller: Behringer X-Touch

Marco. wrote on 8/11/2020, 2:56 PM

It depends on how you output. If in an 8 bit full level project it is to an Y'CbCr video type like AVC or XDCAM HD and you don't touch the default color range render setting then the answer is: No.

Musicvid wrote on 8/11/2020, 5:50 PM

I made this for you to let you see the differences. As you can see, the Studio RGB filter (or Auto Level in 18) brings everything within 16-235 inclusive. This will suit even the pickiest broadcasters, such as History Channel and PBS. I understand that PBS has loosened their goose a bit on chroma slop.

As an analog holdover, "Broadcast Colors" can leave up to 20% chroma spillover, and it can and will get rejected by some uber-picky network and syndicated broadcasters. Look at the "Lenient" histogram.

If you use Broadcast Colors as a quick substitute for stock leveling, I suggest using the "Extra Conservative" mode, which you can see comes a lot closer to strict Studio levels. It should be accepted almost universally for broadcast. Sometimes it looks a little more natural in the blacks than strict Studio RGB.

If you are rendering for streaming and internet, it makes no difference, except for slight differences in appearance. The Luminance will be in legal range with any of these filters. The differences are exaggerated in the Vegas Previews below, because no playback clipping is shown.

 

vagnersouza wrote on 8/13/2020, 8:25 PM

8-bit Full Range was something that I had suggested since when Vegas Pro belonged to Sony. I see a wish come true! It was very difficult to work with YUV 16-235 fonts and JPEG / PNG RGB 8-bit (0-255) images in the same project. I had to apply Levels Studio RGB to Computer RGB on all YUV 16-235 objects and on Video Bus Track apply the reverse, Computer RGB to Studio RGB, to render in MP4 by Vegas Pro. Otherwise, the colors would be different than I saw it on the Vegas Pro Video Preview.

I only have one suggestion for the MAGIX team: When importing a video rendered by Vegas Pro 18, make the program automatically identify if the video is YUV Compressed or if it is YUV Full Range. I'm having difficulties with this, and I need to manually inform Vegas Pro in Properties / Media / Color Range.

There are programs that automatically identify Color Space and Color Range when opening a video, for example, Media Player Classic and TMPGEnc Mastering Works 7. Therefore, it would technically be possible for Vegas Pro to do the same. That would save me from having to tell Vegas Pro that this and that file is Color Range Limited or Color Range Full. It can be tedious to do this one by one when the project has dozens of YUV Full Range files.

 

Marco. wrote on 8/14/2020, 2:58 AM

"When importing a video rendered by Vegas Pro 18, make the program automatically identify if the video is YUV Compressed or if it is YUV Full Range."

Actually VP18 already does this for Y'CbCr video (which is what you mean by "YUV").

Musicvid wrote on 8/14/2020, 10:49 AM

There are only flags that can be read. Actual levels are a different matter entirely, and would require an expensive scan pass and human intervention to classify scene/lighting dynamics correctly. TMPGENC does not do this either, afaik.

Yellandkeil wrote on 8/15/2020, 7:00 AM

There are only flags that can be read. Actual levels are a different matter entirely, and would require an expensive scan pass and human intervention to classify scene/lighting dynamics correctly. TMPGENC does not do this either, afaik.

Neither the  Media Player Classic!

john_dennis wrote on 8/15/2020, 5:54 PM

After running the Vegas Pro 18-284 trial for a short time, I've determined that the new 8 bit (full range) Pixel Format setting is workable for me even though my camera produces neither full or limited Color Range.
Vegas Pro 18-284 identifies the video from the Sony RX10-IV and other cameras of that ilk as limited which clips the whites without user intervention.

All is not lost as the user can correct this malfeasance by manually selecting Full for Color Range in Media Properties and applying a: 

Color Curve


Color Grading Lift Adjustment


LUT

********** Feature Request ***** Feature Request ***** Feature Request ***** Feature Request **********

Since Magix has gotten into the color level detection and fixin' bidness, I would like them to give me a Christmas present. Give me an option to select the actual Pixel Format for the media and apply the appropriate adjustment without me having to do a second intervention.

@Marco. @Musicvid

Marco. wrote on 8/15/2020, 6:04 PM

There is no way to quickly automate real level recognition, no NLE does this. That's what user vagnersouza got wrong. They all depend on proper color range meta data. Else it would need to decode and analyze each single frame of your footage which may take veeeeery long. Human interaction is faster here.

In your examples above where you corrected the levels: To me it seems like before you applied one of the corrections you first switched the clip level property from "Limited" to "Full", correct?

Marco. wrote on 8/15/2020, 6:09 PM

I think I misunderstood. What you ask for is another color range option which is based on 16-255 footage levels, right? So Vegas Pro would only transform the black level and leave the white level untouched.

john_dennis wrote on 8/15/2020, 6:18 PM

@Marco.

I don't want Magix to "automate real level recognition". I want Magix to add an intervention to levels based on the user's knowledge of this one unique situation: 016-255 levels. I'm not sure how common these levels are, but I suspect the number of cameras in the wild are greater than just my one camera when you consider the AX53, AX100, etc. ad nauseum. They're already doing it for two situations with full and limited. It's a slippery slope.

"To me it seems like before you applied one of the corrections you first switched the clip level property from "Limited" to "Full", correct?"

Yes, I was editing while you were typing.

john_dennis wrote on 8/15/2020, 6:22 PM

"So Vegas Pro would only transform the black level and leave the white level untouched."

Yes.

Marco. wrote on 8/15/2020, 6:29 PM

Yes, actually many cameras record - or at least offers a setting to record - 16-255 levels. And such levels make sense, imho.

I second that, a further option for this kind of source levels would be very useful. I will forward this request.

Musicvid wrote on 8/15/2020, 9:44 PM

I agree, and it's worth noting that 16-255 has been around since HDV and AVCHD tape acqusition days. I think that with low S/N ratios, the extra "setup" was needed. It's a very common hybrid consumer format (see Nick's thread).

Rich Parry wrote on 8/23/2020, 3:39 PM

According to the OP of this thread, Vegas Pro checks meta data to see if the input video file color range is RGB or Y'CbCr. What do I need to do to see this myself. I have used "MediaInfo" to view meta data and can only find "Color Space", is that the same as "Color Range".

Where can I find the color range of a video file?

Thanks,

Rich

Musicvid wrote on 8/23/2020, 3:46 PM

Where can I find the color range of a video file?

Accurately? In your video scopes. The rest, with or without metadata tags, is a moving target.

Illusion wrote on 9/18/2020, 3:08 PM

I am experimenting with the Full Range thing. Interestingly, my GoPro 8 has two flags, Limited and Full.

General
Complete name                            : D:\Video\2020\07 Juillet\Vacances 2020\GoProDo\GH010336.MP4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media / Version 1
Codec ID                                 : mp41 (mp41)
File size                                : 321 MiB
Duration                                 : 26 s 827 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 101 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2020-07-23 12:02:22
Tagged date                              : UTC 2020-07-23 12:02:22

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L5.1
Format settings                          : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP                     : M=1, N=15
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 26 s 827 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 100.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.402
Stream size                              : 321 MiB (100%)
Title                                    : GoPro AVC  
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2020-07-23 12:02:22
Tagged date                              : UTC 2020-07-23 12:02:22
Color range                              : Limited
colour_range_Original                    : Full
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
Codec configuration box                  : avcC

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AAC LC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID                                 : mp4a-40-2
Duration                                 : 26 s 795 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 192 kb/s
Nominal bit rate                         : 48.0 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 618 KiB (0%)
Title                                    : GoPro AAC  
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2020-07-23 12:02:22
Tagged date                              : UTC 2020-07-23 12:02:22

Other #1
ID                                       : 3
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : QuickTime TC
Duration                                 : 26 s 827 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Time code of first frame                 : 12:26:32:20
Time code, striped                       : Yes
Title                                    : GoPro TCD  
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2020-07-23 12:02:22
Tagged date                              : UTC 2020-07-23 12:02:22

Other #2
Type                                     : meta
Duration                                 : 26 s 826 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Duration_LastFrame                       : -201

Other #3
Type                                     : meta
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
mdhd_Duration                            : 26827

VP 18 detects it as Full.

But looking at the scope, it looks like 16-255 (Studio RGB off)

Anyone else have the same?

LongIslander wrote on 9/18/2020, 3:16 PM

Gopro footage IS Full Range and Vegas Detects It Properly. 👍. Just drag dem files on the timeline and edit away.