VP18 - Notes on the 8 bit full level option

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RogerS wrote on 12/2/2020, 7:15 PM

@marcinzm In general just leave the project at 8-bit full and don't do anything more to the footage. Uncheck 16-235 limited on the scopes. Vegas will automatically match them all, no "leveling" needed. Vegas will conform to 16-235 video levels upon output.

However some cameras have levels that don't match the metadata, so to be sure you need to do your own tests. One camera doesn't necessarily have the same range across its different modes or profiles.

Here's a reference for what different cameras shoot and how to perform the test yourself:
https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/survey-what-min-max-levels-does-your-cam-shoot--84677/?page=1

Basically shoot something pure black then pure white.

The Sony cameras I can answer as they are all the same- it depends on what profile you are using. Log formats are full. Cine is 16-255 tagged limited except for Cine 2 which is 16-235 also tagged limited.

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-MH- wrote on 4/2/2021, 1:04 AM

This 8 bit full level option has been awesome in VP 18. Like others, I used to have to apply the levels FX and apply the ‘Studio to RGB’ option and then remember to disable it upon rendering. A couple of times I didn’t, particularly on my first video upload to my Tech Wired Geek YouTube channel, and you will be able to see for yourself how everything looks too bright and overexposed and not realistic.

However, that’s my fault because I actually thought I had to apply the ‘Studio to RGB’ levels so that my videos didn’t look washed out once rendered. I didn’t have a complete understanding of this. Once I did, I would apply the levels to see my videos the way they would look once rendered out when editing, then disable it upon rendering out my projects. But now with this option in VP 18 it has really helped me.

Thanks for adding this VEGAS Team! 🙂👍🏻

Last changed by -MH- on 4/2/2021, 1:07 AM, changed a total of 3 times.

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Mindmatter wrote on 4/12/2021, 11:03 AM

Ok I thought I had finally grasped it...my source material is always fuill range, never had an issue with it being wrongly dsplayed in preview. Still looks normal when in 8bit full range mode. But now when I export with Computer RGB to studio RGB as per usual, the final render now plays in Studio RGB levels ( washed out) on computer screens. So I don't use that final level filter anymore and it's Ok. Erm...oh well, it works, I just don't know why. Does V18 now automatically export in studio RGB levels?

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Marco. wrote on 4/12/2021, 11:34 AM

"Does V18 now automatically export in studio RGB levels?"

From a full level project: Yes, while also adding the limited range meta data.

Paul-Fierlinger wrote on 5/11/2021, 5:30 AM

Since upgrading to Build 527 I get this popup every time I open my project:

\AppData\Local\Temp\hr4utW17.bmp is missing

I have no idea what this is. When I leave it offline and continue with the opening I can't come across anything missing. But anytime I open my project again I have to go through the same routine. Any suggestions how I should progress with this?

RogerS wrote on 5/11/2021, 5:36 AM

I don't think this post is in the right thread.

Anyway, sounds like perhaps you dragged something from the internet onto the timeline? Is this bmp in the media folder somewhere? If so, delete it.

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gabgilson wrote on 5/19/2021, 9:07 AM

This thread has been a total eye opener. I've been filming with Slog2 from a Sony a7iii for ages, and all my clips show up as Full range by default, so that's great. I tried switching to HLG3 for a shoot this week. They get picked as 'limited' by Vegas. I've tried searching for info here and wider, but can't see any. Can anyone help to say if it should be Limited or Full by default? I've gone through and switched all the media to Full, as it it gives me a better final output (was milky if left to limited) - so I guess that's right?

Marco. wrote on 5/19/2021, 9:45 AM

@gabgilson
Check your clips via the tool "MediaInfo". If it's full range there will be appropriate meta data.

RogerS wrote on 5/19/2021, 9:57 AM

I believe it's limited range, Sony describes output as up to 100% here, but do check as Marco describes.

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gabgilson wrote on 5/19/2021, 10:05 AM

@gabgilson
Check your clips via the tool "MediaInfo". If it's full range there will be appropriate meta data.

Thanks for the tip. Sony HLG3 clip showing as Limited (Slog2 clips show as full range). Confused, but I guess Vegas is doing what it's supposed to do. I just need to get better at grading!

Illusion wrote on 5/19/2021, 10:30 AM

@gabgilson
Check your clips via the tool "MediaInfo". If it's full range there will be appropriate meta data.

Thanks for the tip. Sony HLG3 clip showing as Limited (Slog2 clips show as full range). Confused, but I guess Vegas is doing what it's supposed to do. I just need to get better at grading!

@gabgilson

You need to apply a LUT to convert HLG3 to Rec 709 or grade it yourself. I personally use Leeming LUT Pro here: https://www.leeminglutpro.com/ , the Sony A Series. Gives excellent results as long as you follow the setup guide.

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gabgilson wrote on 5/19/2021, 10:44 AM

Thanks @Illusion - I was using Film Convert for this first try, which combines a LUT and basic grade. But I'm keen to try DIY grading as well, so I'll give that LUT a try.

RogerS wrote on 5/19/2021, 9:49 PM

I highly recommend Leeming LUT as well for getting from HLG (or Cine 2 which is my preference) to standard Rec 709 colors. I found FilmConvert to be hit or miss depending on the scene, though a nice interface for creative grading.

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Musicvid wrote on 5/21/2021, 2:39 PM

Note that the thread topic refers only to the 8 bit full level option, which is a new feature.

RogerS wrote on 5/23/2021, 9:27 PM

I have not seen Vegas select 8 or 32-bit levels based on the bit depth of the footage. It just defaults to 8-bit full.

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Musicvid wrote on 5/24/2021, 8:20 AM

Note that the thread topic refers only to the 8 bit full level option, which is a new feature.

Auto-selecting the 8/32 bit project format sounds like a good feature request -- in its own thread.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 5/26/2021, 1:26 AM

@Musicvid Didn't mean to sound like I was advocating auto-selecting floating point for projects when creating them with 10-bit media. I think I'm just confused about what's supposed to happen when a project is opened with a limited range clip. If I'm reading the opening post correctly, Vegas doesn't intend to mark the project 8-bit limited when it sees limited in the metadata... it intends to auto-convert the clip to full range and mark the project 8-bit full. So different video level clips can be mixed in the same project. But that kinda complicates things when I need to keep a log clip limited for grading... if Vegas remaps levels before the lut gets applied things shift. Needs to do that kind of thing after the lut gets applied. Gotta ponder this some more.

RogerS wrote on 5/26/2021, 1:54 AM

Good idea- I made a feature request for a prompt to switch formats here. Some users would be surprised Vegas is still processing at an 8-bit depth in 2021 and wondering why their high bit footage isn't looking better.

Howard, Vegas doesn't switch project levels ("pixel format") based on footage. New projects just default to 8-bit full no matter what the media is, though you could use "start all new projects with these settings" to change that to a different format if you desire.

Technical correction LUTs for log files (such as those provided by the manufacturer) should work with 8-bit full enabled, and every other NLE works the same way as far as I'm aware (In my experience, Resolve is also reading the levels metadata). As a Sony shooter I've only tested S-log 2/3, which are full range. Some discussion here regarding Premier and Resolve and log and when things go wrong:
https://www.xdcam-user.com/2019/03/sonys-internal-recording-levels-are-correct/

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Howard-Vigorita wrote on 5/26/2021, 8:53 AM

Technical correction LUTs for log files (such as those provided by the manufacturer) should work with 8-bit full enabled, and every other NLE works the same way as far as I'm aware (In my experience,

I can tell you luts work on log files but not as intended if you mess with them before hand. Things shift in a non-linear fashion if you alter levels on a log-clip before applying the normalizing lut. It's the nature of the beast. I find if I let Vegas change a log clip from limited to full, it takes allot more grading adjustments than if I keep the project limited range. Which is workable if it's a single camera project. Seems to me the right location to place the lut would be at the media level, not the project or track level... particularly if doing multicam with some cameras in log and others not. Not sure however if it avoid the problem if I apply the lut in the project media... whether that would come before Vegas' level transform... will have to experiment. If worse comes to worse I might resort to applying the lut before bringing the clip into Vegas.

Marco. wrote on 5/26/2021, 10:05 AM

Unfortunately there is no way to apply an FX before the media's color range affects the levels. Adding a Media FX will be after the media's internal color range adaption.

RogerS wrote on 5/26/2021, 10:35 AM

I mainly work with limited levels Sony (Cine 2) and am a beta tester for a technical correction LUT. Vegas works accurately as as far as I can tell gives identical results to Resolve. There's no difference to media/track or project as far as I can tell.

8-bit full Track and event appear identical (I'd need to create a copy file to test media- don't have time now)


8-bit legacy with levels correction add at track and event level respectively (end of the Fx chain)


There are very slight differences between these two files looking at the scopes when toggling between the screenshots, but not on the scale of a gross levels mismatch.

For Vegas vs Resolve it's always hard to tell as 8 bit vs 10 bit scopes and their presentation is different but it looks acceptable:


Using Color Cop (Vegas has no eyedropper) I am getting RGB results within 1-2 points of each other for these colors.

Both programs are reading the metadata for this relatively flat video levels footage and also applying a technical correction LUT. I have a reference photo for the chart post-LUT and it basically matches.

Sony S-log 3 is also fine but that is full range. (I have not worked with limited range log files myself.)

Last changed by RogerS on 5/26/2021, 10:36 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 5/26/2021, 10:42 AM

Thanks, @Marco. I'll make a feature request on that. In the meanwhile, looking to see if I can get a LUT pack from zcam designed for full-range footage. If that's even possible. Otherwise I'll have to do an ffmpeg lut-apply before hand. Experimenting with this:

ffmpeg-i %IN%.mp4 -vf lut3d="%LUT%.cube" -c:a copy -c:v %VCODEC% %OUT%.mp4

Though I hate to have to step on the footage with another transcode like that.

RogerS wrote on 5/26/2021, 10:47 AM

Can you share a sample clip and LUT for limited range log?

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 5/26/2021, 11:11 AM

Yes. Pm'ing you because I'm not sure it's in a place I'm allowed to share publicly.