Youtubers | VP09 | Upscaling to 1440p | Worth it or not?

AveSatanas wrote on 12/28/2019, 8:34 PM

Hey guys, this post is NOT a promotion to my Youtube page, but it does help define this topic.

So i just started Youtubing and recording my gameplay, ive noticed that when i upload my (1920x1080) file once edited it looks like crap on Youtube but it doesnt look crap when replaying it back on VLC media player and other similar playback softwares, This means that Youtube must be doing something with my videos and as i thought it was/wasnt there fault

 

There is this thing called VP09 and it gets applied to your video on Youtube if

1. You have a outstanding amount of viewers or

2. You upload your videos at a res of (2560x1440)

In a nutshell if you dont have this "VP09" codec placed on your video, youtube basically "makes your footage look disgusting"

Obviously i went for option 2 as i just started Youtube like 2 days ago, so i started upscaling my (1920x1080) to 1440p and it does look alot better, in fact there was no problem BUT i really want to know from the prospective of professional Vegas Film makers if it makes sense to upscale footage.

Does Upscaling hurt quality?!, Is this VP09 just a hoax?

Im leaving a link to my Youtube so you can that (to my eyes) i see no problem with upscaling it looks fine (to me) but you may have your own personal opinion, please share your thoughts and again - This is not a promotion to my Youtube

 

Cheers - ave

 

Comments

fr0sty wrote on 12/28/2019, 8:38 PM

Are you gaining any quality by upscaling? No, and if anything, you're losing some.

Are you gaining quality on Youtube by tricking it in to giving you a higher bitrate than it does for 1080p on most channels? It is possible, you have to consider how much more bitrate vs. how many more pixels you are adding... but yes, it is possible.

I say let your eye be the judge in this case.

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BruceUSA wrote on 12/28/2019, 8:50 PM

In my test. it is indeed look better when you up load 2560x1440P to Youtube. 1080P is 1080P, you won't gain quality with higher resolution but Youtube allowed a higher birate for 1440P. That is why you see the higher quality in Youtube . When up load a 1080P footage on Youtube you get poor quality because of the low birate.

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AveSatanas wrote on 12/28/2019, 8:56 PM

Yeah i believe Youtube starts compressing at 12Mbps, but dam it just looks silly when left at 1080p like its all pixelated and shoot, would you all recommend leaving at 1440p or left at 1080

 

Also when upscaling, does vegas "add" more pixels or does it stretch the image?

I must add to this that popular youtubers upload at 1080 and it looks brilliant but thats because they have the VP09 codec, is there any other way to get this put on your videos?

AveSatanas wrote on 12/28/2019, 8:57 PM

And if you all started youtube would you upscale or?

BruceUSA wrote on 12/28/2019, 9:04 PM

I always go 1440P for youtube with 1080P video. Its simply better quality for it.

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AveSatanas wrote on 12/28/2019, 9:06 PM

Cheers there @Brett-Maloney i think that is the best option - may aswell since i already started the channel off with it. If i do get quite alot of views id probably move back to 1080p though

BruceUSA wrote on 12/28/2019, 9:13 PM

The choice is yours. I like what I see and I will continued to stay with that for 1080P video.

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AveSatanas wrote on 12/28/2019, 9:23 PM

im guessing 1280x720 upscaled to 1440p would be more dangerous though compared to 1080 to 1440

Musicvid wrote on 12/28/2019, 9:38 PM

Once again, this topic has triggered divergent responses from highly-qualified users, going back many years. Based on some preliminary testing, I was unable to identify a clear winner, except that shadow noise seemed a little higher in the upscaled version.

Of course, subjective response, even when colored by expectations, is a factor that cannot be ruled out on the individual level. For that reason, I think you should make a decision, leaving open the possibility of revising it later. I would leave it at 1080p for YouTube, unless part of a UHD project, and not being very interested in identifying shades of mediocrity in their output.

Be aware, of course, that internet pundits and alchemists persistently hype this kind of stuff, without documentation, to draw hits to their own websites.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/youtube-tricks-for-higher-quality--106494/#ca659329

AveSatanas wrote on 12/28/2019, 9:43 PM

Im not sure how people would respond to the quality of 1080p with no VP09, so id probably change when i get up the leaderboards a little as i know that 1440p can be a bit hard on peoples internet aswell

 

Or maybe just sticking to 1080 is the way to go right now?, im really thinking hard about this

Musicvid wrote on 12/28/2019, 9:54 PM

Well, it really is fine to promote your YouTube channel, so why not post some links to your tests, and invite other peoples' reactions?

AveSatanas wrote on 12/28/2019, 9:55 PM

Hmmmmm or i might just go back to 1080p 60fps at 15Mbps.... seems like the way to go to be very honest

 

Higher bitare - less viewers as there internet may not be capable

Upscaling - only if it benefits the watcher, if not why upscale as loss of quality

1080p seems significant over 1440p upscale, and quality isnt everything i guess

 

AveSatanas wrote on 12/28/2019, 10:03 PM

And i think your right i might just start at 1080 and get your guys recommendations thanks @Musicvid

 

john_dennis wrote on 12/28/2019, 11:50 PM

I'll throw another variable into this quagmire. Happy Otter Scripts for Vegas Pro allows you to render to VP9. I did it once and uploaded to YouTube just to see it work, but I'm neutral on the subject except that I have my favorite render methods.

Personally, 1) I think the user device capability has a lot to do with the experience, and 2) I think all of my videos look like crap from YouTube even though they look stunning at 70-100 Mbps.

YouTube returns my UHD videos in VP9...

... while the one uploaded @1080p comes back as AVC.

 

AveSatanas wrote on 12/29/2019, 2:32 AM

@john_dennis i render at 1440p at 30mbps, my raw file is 1080p at 50mbps, the end result i would like is for my 1080p video to become vp09 but youtube only converts it if you have a high viewership or if you upload 1440p

so in theory my 1080p footage will stay avc, until i either upscale or get more views

LongIslanderrr wrote on 12/29/2019, 2:44 AM

Linustechtips did a video years ago that showed up-scaling to 4k from 1080p to youtube makes a huge difference.

Musicvid wrote on 12/29/2019, 6:51 AM

It is worth noting again that just throwing higher bitrates at YouTube does ...absolutely nothing.

It is also worth noting that VP9 has no inherent quality advantage -- just compression, similar to x265.

 

BruceUSA wrote on 12/29/2019, 9:08 AM

I stand correct. Render a standard Magix 1080P template for Youtube is not looking good on youtube, I render 2560 x 1440P at this setting in the screen shot. I believed my eyes. My eyes tell me it absolutely look better then 1080P. I don't care what other tell me. . You to should believe your own eyes as well. Render per my screen shot settings, the video look better on my 10 bit BenQ 4K 32" monitor and it laso look extremely great on ipad and smartphone.

A side note. If you start with shitt y quality 1080P video. You are going no where.

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Musicvid wrote on 12/29/2019, 10:08 AM

@AveSatanas

Does Upscaling hurt quality?!, Is this VP09 just a hoax?

Software upscaling is always destructive. Newer algorithms are so much better than Bicubic that the visual results are nearly identical, but not as good as hardware upscaling.

VP9 is not a hoax. It gives better compression than x264 at measurably identical quality. There is no quality to be gained beyond optimal, generally considered as 0.995 SSIM.

Also when upscaling, does vegas "add" more pixels or does it stretch the image?

At its most basic, Vegas interpolates (averages) adjacent pixels to synthesize the gaps. Anamorphic stretching is an unrelated storage scheme. Think of all upscaling as a form of controlled noise.

The same is not true of bit depth, where 8 bits wrapped as 10 bits is still 8 gallons of water in a 10 gallon bucket.

 

BruceUSA wrote on 12/29/2019, 10:14 AM

Your eyes is the judge not the graphs.

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Musicvid wrote on 12/29/2019, 10:23 AM

Of course, subjective response, even when colored by expectations, is a factor that cannot be ruled out on the individual level. 

Musicvid wrote on 12/29/2019, 4:00 PM

Of course, the 900 lb. elephant in this discussion is how one does the upscaling.

Old-school Bicubic is not very good. Vegas' smart resample is not available to me because of the GPU preview crash discussed elsewhere. I don't know how it compares to Lanczos, but that one has been quite good to me in ffmpeg, when resizing 720 to 1080 for inclusion in a YouTube project, for instance.

For this discussion, choosing the right algorithm is possibly more important than collateral losses / gains seen through Youtube's processing -- something no outfit with an ounce of integrity should be doing to video in the first place.

fr0sty wrote on 12/29/2019, 4:37 PM

Happy Otter Scripts uses ffmpeg, so the OP could use that method to achieve the best quality upscale.

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wwaag wrote on 12/29/2019, 7:03 PM

Since HOS has been mentioned a couple of times, here are the available resizers available using Avisynth filters prior to encoding, which as john_dennis mentioned, also includes VP9. For upscaling, Lanczos 4, Blackman, or Spline64 would probably be best. You might also add a bit of sharpening as well in the filter chain.

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