half the frames missing from 59.94 fps files

glaukopes wrote on 6/26/2013, 4:45 PM
I am trying to work with 59.94 fps files. I have the project set to 59.94 fps, and Movie Studio shows that my source files are 59.94 fps when I look at the properties. However, if I try to step through a video file frame by frame in either the trimmer or in the preview window it skips half of the frames (i.e. half the frames are skipped and the other half are duplicated to fill in the gaps). I can open the same video file in VLC media player, and if I step through frame by frame I see all of the frames correctly. So I know that there's 59.94 fps in the files, and VLC will show all 59.94 fps. Movie Studio on the other hand claims to know that there are 59.94 fps, but it will only show 29.97 fps even if the project settings are set to 59.94 fps.

I tried getting help from support and uploaded a sample file for them when they asked. At first they acknowledged the problem and said they would pass it on to the development team. Then they came back and claimed that my camera was at fault and was creating the duplicate frames and that I should use 30 fps mode in Sony Movie Studio. This claim is completely false and bogus as clearly demonstrated by the fact that I can see all 60 fps without duplicates just fine in VLC media player, but they kept coming back and giving me the same answer. I also downloaded Adobe Premier Elements trial version, and it also shows all 60 fps just fine without duplicates. At this point support has stopped responding and is just trying to close my ticket. Can anyone help me? I paid a lot of money for this product that isn't working and support refuses to help or even acknowledge the problem.

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 6/26/2013, 6:10 PM
You're misinterpreting the numbers.

I assume your files are 59.94 Interlaced (you didn't say), which is 29.97 frames consisting of 59.94 fields. If you match your media settings in both your project and render, you will get 29.97 fps Interlaced (60i).

If, OTOH, your video is 59.94 Progressive (60p), just match your project and render settings accordingly for your desired output.

In either case, if you decide on 30p output, disable resampling on the events.

There is no bug in Vegas with regard to your observations.



glaukopes wrote on 6/27/2013, 8:19 AM
The video files are 60p, not interlaced. The project settings are correctly set at 59.94. I render at 30p, the 60p is so I can do smoother slow motion. I should be able to do 50% slow motion and render to 30p without any duplicated frames. However, I do get duplicated frames when I do slow motion and render at 30p. I always disable resampling on all the events. Though I have tried leaving resampling on, and that makes no difference in this case.

Once again, VLC media player and Adobe Premiere Elements show all 60p just fine. So it's not me. It's not the files. It's something with Sony Movie Studio--whether it's some settings that need to be changed or some kind of bug. If it's some settings that need to be changed, I have yet to find out what. If it's a bug, then maybe there's some kind of workaround.
MSmart wrote on 6/27/2013, 2:39 PM
You don't say what version of Movie Studio you're using. It could make a difference.
glaukopes wrote on 6/27/2013, 3:10 PM
Movie Studio Platinum 12.0 (Build 896) 64-bit
musicvid10 wrote on 6/27/2013, 8:10 PM
" I should be able to do 50% slow motion and render to 30p without any duplicated frames."

You didn't say that is what you wanted to do; never mentioned slow motion or 60p. The procedure is easy.

1. Open your video in a 30p project (29.97, not 59.94)..
2. Set playback rate in media properties at .500.
3. Grab the right edge of the video event, and click-drag it out until it snaps to the notch.
4. Disable event resampling.
5. Render 30p. That's it.

Or, instead of steps 2 and 3, you can Ctrl+Shift Click and drag the right event edge until it is precisely double length. I prefer the first method.

Specific details and questions will get you specific answers.
If you have further issues, upload an original camera clip somewhere (Dropbox, Mediafire, Google Drive).

Pardon any jerky playback -- it's Youtube.



glaukopes wrote on 6/27/2013, 10:20 PM
Thanks for the idea. It did not work though. Still seeing duplicated frames in the slow-mo section, so it's effectively 15p when it should be 30p.

Also, one other thing, the "until it snaps to the notch" thing does not work for me. That is one of the things that annoys me about Sony Movie Studio. If I want to do *exactly* 50% playback speed. I have to actually count all the frames, then multiply by two. Then I have to set the cursor to that position that I want. Then ctrl+drag to the cursor, because it will snap to that. If I try to set the playback speed to 0.500 in the properties and then drag, it will simply drag forever and never snap to anything other than the cursor or the edges of other clips. The only way to get exactly 50% speed while still having the clip end at the same spot is to line the cursor up exactly on the frame that I need to snap to.

Anyway, I have a workaround for that annoying problem, so back on topic:

I have uploaded my original example clip to dropbox:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13857574/100_0008.MOV

Yes, it's shaky, sorry. I picked it because I wanted a clip that was already really short, so that I didn't have to edit it and potentially alter it in any way while saving or rendering it.

Here you can see a sample of how I would like to do slow motion:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13857574/60fpstest.mp4

Here you can see me doing the same thing using Adobe's Premiere Elements trial version. The slow motion is clearly, visibly smoother even without needing to do frame by frame. You can easily see the difference that having all the frames there makes. If you do check frame by frame, you can see there are no duplicates as there are in the Sony Movie Studio version above.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13857574/60fps_test_adobe.f4v

And finally, just for kicks, here's another one I did really quick following the procedure outlined in the last post. As you can see, there is no difference whether I set the project to 30p or 60p. The final result is still duplicated frames in slow motion resulting in an effective 15p.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13857574/fps_test_2.mp4
musicvid10 wrote on 6/28/2013, 7:39 AM
You are unfortunately mistaken. The interactive tutorials in Vegas are a great help with learning basic navigation and function.

If, however, you are saying you are more comfortable with the Premiere workspace, by all means use it.

This slomo sample using your footage was completed in just under two minutes in Vegas by following the directions; the majority of that time having been spent rendering . . .
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20519276/slomo.mp4

[EDIT] Velocity envelopes and automation are a feature of Vegas Pro only. Another thing you didn't mention.

glaukopes wrote on 6/28/2013, 9:55 AM
Are you using Movie Studio Platinum 12.0 build 896 64-bit? What project settings are you using?

There's very limited room for any mistakes that I could be making. All that I am doing is: 1) open Movie Studio 2) import the media file 3) open the media file in the trimmer. And bam, duplicated frames already there. It's not like I am *doing* anything to cause it. It would have to be the result of some global setting.

I have tried uninstalling and reinstalling Movie Studio. I've tried going into the Options -> Preferences and hitting the "Default All" button to reset all the preferences to defaults. I have tried several variations of the procedure, such as: 1) open Movie studio 2) use the Explorer tab (instead of importing the media) to drag the clip onto the timeline. Same result, duplicated frames when I step through the preview frame by frame. I've tried disabling resampling and leaving it enabled...no difference. I've tried setting the project to automatically match media video settings. I've also tried manually selecting the project settings at both 60p and 30p. I've tried both checking and unchecking the box that says, "Adjust source media to better match project or render settings." (By default that box seems to always be checked, but wouldn't I normally want it unchecked?) I've tried setting the Deinterlace method to "none" and leaving it at its default "blend fields." Regardless, no matter what, I always get the same result (well except with resampling on I sometimes get some really nice blur going depending on the other settings. :D ) But in every case I see the same problem of duplicated frames.

Lack of comfort is not *causing* this issue. You're right that the interactive tutorials and videos can be a good help for basic navigation and learning the interface, but this is not a problem of basic navigation or using the interface. Right now I would love to switch to Adobe Premiere Elements. Unfortunately I already paid $100 for Sony Movie Studio, and to switch I would have to pay another $100.

Are the project files portable? Could you send me your project file, and I could try opening it on my computer? Could you maybe screenshot your project settings? I think I've tried every logical possibility, but who knows. Maybe I should try even something seemingly illogical like changing Deinterlace method to interpolate fields. I assume you were using 30p for your project settings so you would only see 30p in the project preview. But what about in the trimmer? Could you step through frame by frame in the trimmer and see all 60 frames?
musicvid10 wrote on 6/28/2013, 1:45 PM
Is this what you were after?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20519276/slomo2.mp4

Again, a couple of minutes fooling around only with the tools available in Movie Studio (no envelopes).

There is a learning curve associated with this software, and i'm sure that over time, the rewards will be well worth the investment for you. Best.
;?)
glaukopes wrote on 6/28/2013, 3:29 PM
No, that's not what I'm after. What I want is to see what might be different about your project settings from mine. Also, I asked a number of specific questions like what software version you are using that you didn't answer.

This isn't some kind of Eastern religion mysticism. There should be no need to spend months in meditation to learn over time how to make this work. If it only took you "a couple minutes of fooling around," how much could there be to it? This is pretty black-and-white. Are you or are you not checking any special boxes or changing any setting to enable proper handing of 60p? Or is it simply working by default for you? For me it is not working by default. Can you simply start a new project, use my sample media file, and see all 60p in the trimmer without needing to do anything special? If so, then I should be able to as well without needing to spend time getting to know Movie Studio better. Either there's a specific setting that needs to be changed or there isn't.

Also, I work with computers and technology for a living, and I simply cannot believe or understand how you could possibly just assume that a piece of software is perfect and without flaws. I am making no assumptions either way. It's entirely possible that there's some setting I haven't found that needs to be changed, or it's also possible that the software is not working correctly. I am open to investigating all possibilities. But I do not think it is at all helpful to say, "The software is perfect. You must be doing something wrong. We can't tell you what you're doing wrong, or even do anything to help you narrow it down. But we're just sure you must be doing something wrong because the software is perfect, and you just need to learn it better." If I am indeed doing something wrong, then an expert should be able to tell me what I"m doing wrong.
vkmast wrote on 6/28/2013, 4:17 PM
MSmart and the OP may be on to something here. The version could make a difference.

Media Settings matched, in VMSP 10 I see in Media Properties: Streams Video 1280x720x24, H.264, and Plug-In Name: qt7plug.dll (Format QuickTime 7) (Summary Comment: KODAK PlaySport Video Camera, Zx3)
In VMSP 11 and MSP 12: 1280x720x12, AVC, and Plug-in Name: compoundplug.dll (Format Sony AVC)
For me, v10 trimmer and preview seem to work the way the OP expects, v11 and v12 seem here to confirm his findings. I don't have older versions.
musicvid10 wrote on 6/28/2013, 4:32 PM
"No, that's not what I'm after."

OK then, best of luck.
I'm sure others here are able to be of more help.


glaukopes wrote on 6/29/2013, 10:31 AM
Is there any way to tell MS 12.0 to use a different plug-in for this type of file?
vkmast wrote on 6/30/2013, 3:36 PM
Did a "Search" on these forums and found the suggestion (by musicvid actually) in an old thread to use Mpeg Streamclip to convert the .mov to something else.
Imported the .mp4 to MSP v12.
The OP might try this route to see if it gets him the results he wants.