@Howard-Vigorita @Former user @RogerS You guys seems fairly knowledgeable. Let me be real with you, I've had a flourishing videography business for 15 years now but I literally know NOTHING about the technical side/principles of how video works. How, why? I don't know lol. I've literally shot and done everything by eye, never learned. Bottom line, what I'm looking to accomplish is to shoot, correct and grade CLOG3 10bit footage of weddings I shoot. I immediately notice how much nicer it is to work with this footage and how much better it looks. 24FPS footage edits like butter but 60FPS is pretty bad. So I have two questions: 1. Is there software (ie Handbrake, etc) that can properly transcode this footage into something buttery smooth and still retain that wonderful 422 depth. And 2. Do I lose out on a lot editing on an 8bit full range project vs 32bit. If it just a small difference such as less banding and minor things that an untrained eye wouldn't notice (like my brides) then I'm not even going to worry about that and focus on 8bit full range for editing my CLOG3 footage. That would then leave me with finding the best way to convert without it going crappy. And something easy like HB, where I can set it in the morning, forget it, and come back later in the day when the clips are all converted. Sorry and thank you for any help!
Hi Mark, I get you- there are plenty of things I resisted learning as well as other creative aspects of videomaking are more worthy of spending time on.
If you don't want to deal with the added complexities that accompany log, you don't have to shoot it. I stick to the Sony Cine (Hypergamma) instead of S-log as it's a good compromise. Back in the C100 days there was a Wide DR setting- does your camera have that? If so, perhaps try that instead and stay in an 8-bit workflow for now.
For banding, try a scene with a big blue sky and another with subtle skin tones. Try processing them in the multiple ways described here (ACES, 32-bit video + LUT, 8-bit full) and just render a few second clip of each. Compare and see which looks acceptable to you. Personally I can see banding with log images when using Vegas 8-bit project settings (and it is more noticeable in motion) so if you had a nice 10-bit image I'd want to stay in 10 bit.
To address the second part of your question, yes, I think you can do this in Handbrake. Try the production standard preset, then modify it to pick 10-bit x264. Ensure it's set to the same framerate at constant framerate and resolution limit is off. I just did this and got a 10-bit 4:2:0 AVC file. It does seem to be tagged limited range when it should be full range so you need to fix that in Vegas (right-click on media and go to properties). I did it at RF of 17. The scopes look rougher than the original file; not sure if there are other settings that help with x264 10-bit encodes.
I then tried again with x265 10 bit in Handbrake at RF 17 and that worked much better with no visible banding and better looking scopes. It's way smaller than the original file and is 10-bit 4:2:0 so it should decode without issue. It's still flagged as limited range for some reason.
@MarkAnthony121, transcode/recode is the last attack only if you have no back and your NLE can't recognise the footage.
In post edit, say VEGASpro, besides the proxy there's the swap choice, too - a temporary (batch) transcode for timeline preview and by rendering go swap back the source origins.
I once tried the Leawo-converter, a korean software if I'm right, quite suitable for the swapping.
Silly questions:
Do you know what or for what purpose is
pixel format (8/10bit depth)?
chroma subsampling (420,422,444)?
the shooting release btw film(24fps) and digi-capture?
I wouldn't like to reduce my camera quality settings to suit my editor. If you try AVC 10bit, you have no GPU decoding which on my computer is too CPU heavy, when you talk of editing like a knife through butter then best choice is Prores422, 4K60 is 1000MB/s so the intermediates will be much larger than other options. The free app shutter encoder can transcode to Prores. There's a suggestion of 4K60 420 10bit HEVC above, it is weakest at edit points so create a mock project to test.
This is a test of AVC 422 10bit, and Prores422(10bit) Clips with slices removed to trigger CPU peaks to simulate a regular edit. 4K60 420 10bit HEVC did not playback reliably enough through edit points to bother include
A Shutter Encoder ProRes transcode is a good idea.
(I only tested HEVC 10 bit 4:2:0 at 24fps as that what the sample file was. It seemed to work okay but do test carefully.)
@MarkAnthony121 Did a transcode of your 2nd clip to 4:2:0 and it handles better and looks pretty clean to me. Uploaded Here if you want to try it out... suggest you compare renders with a media replacement in a project graded with your original 422. If 420 works better (it should) and looks good enough, you might check if your R5 has a firmware update that adds hevc 420 for recording... I know they've got it in the xf605 that I've been checking out and heard Canon is planning on upgrading firmware across the line where possible.
I did my own look-see starting with the default 8-bit full doing the color grade. Didn't see any need to adjust further when switching to 32-bit video range for renders. I used the LUT I got from Canon, CG C-Log3 to BT709 WideDR 65-point, which looks better to me than the one built into the Vegas Color Grade panel. Fwiw, I could only see a slight difference difference between 8- and 32-bit project renders and no difference between 420 and 422 media... but I'm only looking at it on my 4k laptop screen. My VP19 is set to use my laptop's Nvidia for video gpu and it's Intel igpu for decoding with legacy hevc decoding enabled. All else mostly set to defaults.
Without first correcting the log transform, how could one tell whether 422 or 420 output looks better?
Thanks for all the helpful responses everyone. Sorry I can't reply to each of your points as I'm swamped but I'll look into those suggestions. @Howard-Vigorita did you use Handbrake?
@MarkAnthony121, transcode/recode is the last attack only if you have no back and your NLE can't recognise the footage.
In post edit, say VEGASpro, besides the proxy there's the swap choice, too - a temporary (batch) transcode for timeline preview and by rendering go swap back the source origins.
I once tried the Leawo-converter, a korean software if I'm right, quite suitable for the swapping.
Silly questions:
Do you know what or for what purpose is
pixel format (8/10bit depth)?
chroma subsampling (420,422,444)?
the shooting release btw film(24fps) and digi-capture?
I'm semi familiar with this. I will do research when I have time and educate myself more and learn more.
I'd highly recommend transcoding it to prores. You can use shutter encoder or a free app called resolume alley to do this. This preserves both 4:2:2 and 10 bit, and it will decode much faster in VEGAS.
... @Howard-Vigorita did you use Handbrake?
@MarkAnthony121 I used ffmpeg but Handbrake might work just as well since it uses it to. It's pretty much the same script as I posted earlier in this thread, just matched to your bitrate and includes audio:
ffmpeg -i "R5 Original File 2.mp4" -c:v hevc_qsv -pix_fmt yuv420p10le -profile:v main10 -b:v 135M -minrate 135M -maxrate 135M -bufsize 270M -c:a copy -y "R5 Original File 2 (420 cbr).mp4"
If you had a weaker system, not able to decode hevc 420 in hardware, a ProRes transcode suggested by @fr0sty would be more optimal. It'll generate larger clips but decode more easily with just the cpu. If a ProRes workflow is more to your liking, I think there's a NinjaV+ solution that'll record ProRes over hdmi directly from your camera.
Those same ninja recorders also enable ProRes RAW recording over HDMI when connected to certain cameras, for even higher quality video... But it will take an enormous amount of hard drive space.
To address the second part of your question, yes, I think you can do this in Handbrake. Try the production standard preset, then modify it to pick 10-bit x264. Ensure it's set to the same framerate at constant framerate and resolution limit is off. I just did this and got a 10-bit 4:2:0 AVC file. It does seem to be tagged limited range when it should be full range so you need to fix that in Vegas (right-click on media and go to properties). I did it at RF of 17. The scopes look rougher than the original file; not sure if there are other settings that help with x264 10-bit encodes.
I then tried again with x265 10 bit in Handbrake at RF 17 and that worked much better with no visible banding and better looking scopes. It's way smaller than the original file and is 10-bit 4:2:0 so it should decode without issue. It's still flagged as limited range for some reason.
So I tried your settings for Handbrake and converted about 165 clips for a wedding. Problem is that some random clips (which I can play with VLC player no problem) give me this error when I try to import them.
Any ideas why? I converted them in one batch, so all the same settings. It seems to be a random pattern, not based off size or frame rate as far as I can tell. Maybe 20 of the 165. The rest imported just fine and played decently.
Can only guess, not seeing the MediaInfo, but that warning is probably a result of not selecting "main 10-intra" in the encoder profile. It might of given you long GOPs if they were used in the original clips which Vegas doesn't like.
Btw, if you're getting unusually small output files even though the frame sizes match and both are 10-bit, that would indicate a loss of detail. The rule of thumb transcoding from 4:2:2 to 4:2:0, all other things being equal, is to expect output to be roughly 75% the size of the original. The easiest way to approximate that is to look at the average bitrate of the original in MediaInfo, multiply by .75, and specify the result as the desired average bit rate. You can also accomplish the same thing by just juggling the constant quality rate factor and home in on the optimal RF by successive approximation.
THIS IS ONE OF THE CLIPS THAT GIVE THE ERROR:
Complete name : C:\Users\Mark\Desktop\702A4115.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42 (mp42/iso2/avc1/mp41)
File size : 589 MiB
Duration : 19 s 653 ms
Overall bit rate : 252 Mb/s
Encoded date : UTC 2022-02-26 02:43:31
Tagged date : UTC 2022-02-26 02:43:31
Writing application : HandBrake 1.5.1 2022011000
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High 10@L5.2
Format settings : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 4 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 19 s 653 ms
Bit rate : 251 Mb/s
Width : 3 840 pixels
Height : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Minimum frame rate : 59.920 FPS
Maximum frame rate : 59.960 FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 10 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.506
Stream size : 589 MiB (100%)
Writing library : x264 core 164 r3065 ae03d92
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=36 / lookahead_threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=600 / keyint_min=60 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=8.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=81 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2022-02-26 02:43:31
Tagged date : UTC 2022-02-26 02:43:31
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709
Codec configuration box : avcC
Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC LC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID : mp4a-40-2
Duration : 19 s 648 ms
Source duration : 19 s 669 ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 109 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel layout : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 261 KiB (0%)
Source stream size : 262 KiB (0%)
Title : Stereo
Language : English
Default : Yes
Alternate group : 1
Encoded date : UTC 2022-02-26 02:43:31
Tagged date : UTC 2022-02-26 02:43:31
mdhd_Duration : 19648
THIS IS A CLIP THAT IMPORTS FINE:
Complete name : C:\Users\Mark\Desktop\702A4110.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42 (mp42/iso2/avc1/mp41)
File size : 160 MiB
Duration : 4 s 438 ms
Overall bit rate : 302 Mb/s
Encoded date : UTC 2022-02-26 02:39:24
Tagged date : UTC 2022-02-26 02:39:24
Writing application : HandBrake 1.5.1 2022011000
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High 10@L5.2
Format settings : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 4 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 4 s 438 ms
Bit rate : 302 Mb/s
Width : 3 840 pixels
Height : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Minimum frame rate : 59.920 FPS
Maximum frame rate : 59.960 FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 10 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.608
Stream size : 160 MiB (100%)
Writing library : x264 core 164 r3065 ae03d92
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=36 / lookahead_threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=600 / keyint_min=60 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=8.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=81 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2022-02-26 02:39:24
Tagged date : UTC 2022-02-26 02:39:24
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709
mdhd_Duration : 4438
Codec configuration box : avcC
Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC LC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID : mp4a-40-2
Duration : 4 s 438 ms
Source duration : 4 s 459 ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 115 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel layout : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 62.3 KiB (0%)
Source stream size : 62.7 KiB (0%)
Title : Stereo
Language : English
Default : Yes
Alternate group : 1
Encoded date : UTC 2022-02-26 02:39:24
Tagged date : UTC 2022-02-26 02:39:24
mdhd_Duration : 4437
Keyint is too high. Try 30 or so.
Keyint is too high. Try 30 or so.
Do you know how to adjust that in HandBrake? I used --keyint 30 under advanced options but it didn't seem to change anything
I just opened Handbrake and did a test with keyint=12:min-keyint=1: (started with the production standard preset)
I brought it into Vegas and it didn't trigger the media warning.