Uncompressed PCM, Cpu friendly, 100mb per minute file size, 720p 30fps

judelaw wrote on 10/7/2018, 12:56 AM

I don't care about the bitrate, I care about filesize. Let's say your 4.35Gb dvd would have to contain 43 and a half minutes of my files.

Bitrate is directly tied to file size, if you know your bitrate, you know your file size. By doing the math MusicVid pointed out, you can determine that in order to get the file size you are looking for, you need to go with a bitrate of 13mbps. They do not go by "size per minute/hour" like you are trying to do, only number of megabits per second (sometimes they go by kilobits per second as well).

For your uses, I'd go with pairing an AVC or x264 file with PCM audio. You can render Magix AVC and then use another app like mp4boxGUI to remux the audio with a PCM stream. That should do what you are trying to do. The reason AVC is the preferred codec is, it decodes easy by the CPU, file size is small, and almost any device is going to be able to play it. If you're not worried about device compatibility, then a codec like Magic YUV, ProRes, etc. might better suit you, but for both easy decompression and compatibility, AVC is king.

It's not very convenient for workflow to have to have to add the audio track later. If there it a mistake in my video, then I would have to render it again (witch is fine, it happens all the time), but also to add again the audio track, hopping that syntonisation is going to be perfect. It adds complexity to the process.

judelaw wrote on 10/7/2018, 1:07 AM

I guess I need a huge 4 tb storage hdd if I want to be able to edit old videos in the future, otherwise I would have to go through the painful process of creating those huge source files. A 4 TB could contain about 1300 minutes of 3GB/minute YUV.
What the hell, it's going to be so complicated. Such a hard time to avoid choppy playback.. It it so easy now, with normal small compressed formats, drop the files in Vegas and work with it, no conversion, no storage of huge files.

judelaw wrote on 10/7/2018, 4:26 AM

I don't know, that huge YUV file seems a bit harder than my xvid file to read with mpc-hc, it plays fine, but it's not smooth if while playing I go switch to another part of the video with my mouse.

The colour seems to have changed also, seems over-saturated while the xvid codec has a smoother greyish tone.

Edit : Now I can switch smoothly to other parts of the video of the huge YUV file on mpc-hc, maybe something else was causing he problem on my PC at that time (chrome tabs or whatever). Still very saturated though when compared to xvid.

judelaw wrote on 10/7/2018, 7:29 AM

How about a Vegas plugin that works well and would allow me to render in AVC/PCM ?

How about if my project settings is AVC/ACC, I drop my bunch of AVC/ACC videos and then my audio wav file on the time line, and then render in a video template that contains PCM audio ? Will the audio somehow be first converted from WAV to ACC then from ACC to PCM, Or will it be rendered straight from WAV to PCM ?

Musicvid wrote on 10/7/2018, 8:30 AM

In this house we don't use PCM except for recording and mastering. It seems to be a precondition for you, at the price of video quality in a file less than 1GB, is that correct?

If you want both good video and audio for archiving purposes, yes, you will need some drive space. You seem to wish that audio quality does not depend on size. It does. Every day.

In fact, PCM, AAC, MP3, AC3 are all the same at the highest Bitrate. Bet you didn't know that. Higher Bitrate means bigger File Size. By now, everyone here has tried to explain that, and for me, it is beginning to wear thin.

Unwilling to bend on the audio means severely limiting your encoding pairing options. AAC with concert video does not please me because my upper range hearing is already damaged. AC3 Dolby works better for me, but I am ALREADY faced with container/player compatibility concerns. You pay a price for your expectations. Do you see where I am going with this?

One suggestion if you are convinced you need pcm audio and best video -- create a BluRay disc ISO? That way, in your saved DVDA projects, you can switch out your audio and video streams at will, without affecting each other, or taking more than a few minutes.. And they will play like a dream on you home players and Media Servers!

It has taken us a long time to determine your needs based on your proposed "solution" which isn't practical in the real world.

Going forward, I hope you will tell us what your needs are first (miniscule size and top quality is not a need, it is a fairytale), and not try to explain with a prescripted solution. It's simply a lot harder on us that way.

By the way, that 4TB drive you are dreading buying costs $89. I wish that weren't the cause of so much angst.

In any case, I hope you find some paths to pursue that are not fraught with such agonizing choices and obstacles. Nobody said you can't have PCM as your project Media, and render something playable each time you render a file for delivery. In 30 years of commercial music production, I've never felt that pinch. See my signature below.

Best. There is nothing more I can contribute here.

fr0sty wrote on 10/7/2018, 1:25 PM

Yeah, the AVC/MP4 format wasn't meant to have PCM audio, AAC is what it uses, but it is the only format that meets your video compression needs. Your best bet is to make a DVD or Blu-Ray as suggested above. That gives you video files that can have PCM audio, and you can do it within one app, DVD Architect.

judelaw wrote on 10/7/2018, 3:14 PM

Well, like everyone I wan't the best in every aspect, but I will eventually have to comprise, that's how it works. There is one thing though, quite important : I don't use AT ALL the audio of my video source files, so I couldn't care less about it. I use my own wav file as audio, the wav of my own music, hence my last question :

"How about if my project settings in Vegas were AVC/ACC, if I would drop my bunch of videos converted to AVC/ACC on the timeline, mute them all, and then add my audio wav file on the timeline ? After I'm done mixing I would render in an other video template of my choice that contains PCM audio. Will the audio of my wav file somehow be first converted from WAV to ACC and then from ACC to PCM, Or will it be rendered straight from WAV to PCM ?"

I'm also a bit concerned about DOUBLE video conversion, the first one in AVC for playing purposes, then the second one for rendering to the template of my choice. I'm even more concern about that after my trial of YUV that rendered a over-saturated video.

"By the way, that 4TB drive you are dreading buying costs $89. I wish that weren't the cause of so much angst." Yeah a bit, I already spent so much, but not really, I'm more concern about work flow, keeping things simple, flexible and neat.

Off-topic : You worked on Grease ?! My god...

john_dennis wrote on 10/7/2018, 4:57 PM

"How about if my project settings in Vegas were AVC/ACC..."

You don't have to worry about that since there is no such thing.

judelaw wrote on 10/7/2018, 5:33 PM

Cool! I didn't know that, Thank you ! That's one problem taken care of. The only one left is the concern about double conversion :

-First conversion to AVC of all video source files prior to editing, for smooth editing purposes.
-Second conversion when rendering to the template of my choice, a compressed video format with uncompressed pcm that would be better than the xvid I'm curently using for rendering. As I said, I am concerned about that after my trial of YUV that rendered a over-saturated video."

john_dennis wrote on 10/7/2018, 5:44 PM

"I'm even more concern about that after my trial of YUV that rendered a over-saturated video."

Vegas decodes the timeline and that's unavoidable. Stop worrying about that.

Nothing about the YUV codec rendered an over-saturated video, You need to learn about video levels and how the various editors handle them. Vegas does not wrangle video levels for you. Some NLE programs do. The Vegas team made a decision to expect the editor to know about such things and manage them for themselves.

Search "video levels", Studio RGB, Computer RGB, etc.

judelaw wrote on 10/7/2018, 7:18 PM

Thanks ! So nothing wrong about YUV then. Must be xvid that's too greyish then, and I got use to it. Yes you're right, anyway if I'm not pleased with the colour, i can still apply some colour correction or some filters / effects.

For smooth editing should I use Bluray AVC or internet AVC ?

john_dennis wrote on 10/7/2018, 10:19 PM

I'll show you how to achieve what you think you want to achieve.

judelaw wrote on 10/8/2018, 1:27 AM

Thanks, unfortunately, I just checked and youtube doesn't allow to upload m2ts. I'll probably stick to xvid for final rendering. It's a lame format, but it ticks nearly all the boxes for me. ( I tried x264vwf but it has a huge sound/video discrepancy of more than one second)

As for intermediate rendering (to render sources files to a cpu friendly format for smooth editing purposes ) I tried internet AVC with the highest bitrate available in the list : 25mb/s. A 1 minute file is about 100MB. It seems too compressed to be a proper cpu friendly editing format doesn't it ?

NickHope wrote on 10/8/2018, 1:48 AM

...youtube..

...intermediate...

Note to long-time forum contributors: Firmly establish the exact intended purpose of a user's renders before committing significant time to helping them!

NickHope wrote on 10/8/2018, 1:58 AM

@judelaw YouTube are going to highly compress your audio anyway. I bet nobody will ever hear the difference between their audio converted from your PCM or from high bitrate AAC.

Why do you need intermediates? Are you not getting smooth playback of YouTube downloads on your timeline?

judelaw wrote on 10/8/2018, 1:58 AM

As for YUV I couldn't find any bitrate setting. I have to try cineform also.

john_dennis wrote on 10/8/2018, 2:04 AM

"I just checked and youtube doesn't allow to upload m2ts."

That is completely false.

judelaw wrote on 10/8/2018, 2:13 AM

" I bet nobody will ever hear the difference between their audio converted from your PCM or from high bitrate AAC"
Yes Musicvid already told me, so I'm definitely keeping that in mind.

Indeed, I wasn't getting smooth payback, It was very hard to work. Since then I got a better computer, but I didn't have infinite money so it's not the best computer out there either. That's why I'm not taking any chances, I'm determining the best format for me prior to doing new videos with my new computer. I think it's worth asking about formats. Even if god is with me and the combination new computer + new format is overkill, it would still be a good thing, it would allow me to go even deeper into special effects for instance.

judelaw wrote on 10/8/2018, 2:17 AM

"I just checked and youtube doesn't allow to upload m2ts."

That is completely false.

Sorry then, it's weird, I got this list from youtube's website : https://nsa39.casimages.com/img/2018/10/08/181008093125128913.jpg

NickHope wrote on 10/8/2018, 2:39 AM

...Even if god is with me and the combination new computer + new format is overkill, it would still be a good thing, it would allow me to go even deeper into special effects for instance.

Do you mean that using intermediates would be a good thing, even if your new computer can work smoothly with your original source videos (the ones you download from YouTube)? And a good thing because you'll be able to load more FX onto them before slowing down, or for some other reason?

judelaw wrote on 10/8/2018, 4:23 AM

You had me thinking for ten minutes. But yes, I will use intermediates even if my new computer can work smoothly with my original source videos, because you never know in advance what the complexity of the vidéo will be. But if after a while I come to the conclusion that intermediates are always or sometime useless, I might reconsider, because converting is a destructive process. But yes, for now I'm not taking any chances.

NickHope wrote on 10/8/2018, 6:38 AM

It doesn't have to be a destructive process if you use a lossless codec such as MagicYUV for your intermediates, but in my experience those lossless formats generally play back less smoothly in Vegas than a downloaded YouTube video would.

XAVC Intra is a codec that is native to Vegas, nearly lossless, and should play back smoother than MagicYUV. That might fulfill your needs. If you really want to use an intermediate, then, based on the tests I've done and seen, I would use MagicYUV or XAVC Intra ahead of Cineform.

You could alternatively use proxies and swap out for your original files for final render. Some pointers on that in section #9 of this post: https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-can-i-make-my-video-preview-play-smoothly-in-vegas-pro--104624/ VP15 & 16 have a newer, separate proxy feature whereby you can simply swap out the clips from the Project Media or Render As windows, for files with the same name regardless of file extension.

Musicvid wrote on 10/8/2018, 8:32 AM

...youtube..

...intermediate...

Note to long-time forum contributors: Firmly establish the exact intended purpose of a user's renders before committing significant time to helping them!

It wasn't from a lack of trying, "Intended purpose" being the shifting target in this instance.

This is what we were given:

This is exactly what I need : Uncompressed PCM, Cpu friendly, 100mb per minute file size, 720p 30fps

Size file is important for me because of SSD space and transfer rate from the ssd to the cpu, that's the only reason.

still-unclear goals" I 'm just doing video clips for my songs. The music itself is the real creation.

It's not very convenient for workflow to have to have to add the audio track later.

I'm determining the best format for me prior to doing new videos with my new computer. I think it's worth asking about formats.

What the hell, it's going to be so complicated. Such a hard time to avoid choppy playback..

I'm not taking any chances, I'm determining the best format for me prior to doing new videos with my new computer.

Q: "What's the first thing I have to do to get out of a hole?"

A: "Stop digging."

-- Anonymous teacher

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/speaking-good-video-a-beginner-s-guide--104463/

Musicvid wrote on 10/8/2018, 10:06 AM

Welcome to the forums, judelaw.

Thought I'd share a little trick I learned in the early days of tape multiplex music video editing, before we had digital anything except 8-bit personal computers with a two-octave range, reminiscent of yours truly.

-- You mentioned adding an audio track later to your visuals. A better way is to lay in your PCM music track first, then on a track above, add your video/image backgrounds at beatwise places, usually 4-7 seconds apart. Then, at musical high points add some impact shots and maybe a couple of generated effects. Don't overdo it like you do with everything else

Oh, and by all means get off the internet and make some mistakes!

-- Now, your MULTIPLE goals seem to include audio quality, bandwith, storage size, local playback, editing preview, rendering speed, uploads, lossless intermediates, and now, video quality.

That's at least three renders, small, medium, and large.

Have you tried making a BluRay folder in DVDA with PCM audio? It's ''da bomb for home entertainment.

If by chance your motive is to talk yourself into new equipment, you've come to the right place, but you'll not find an appreciative audience for tap dancers.