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Howard-Vigorita wrote on 5/10/2022, 5:03 PM

Rule of thumb for "b" is 75%... approximately 260Mb/s. Ideally if the content is from a camera with a single ccd 420 sensor, nothing that was captured from the sensor should be lost. Best you can do with "a" would be at a bitrate 80% of 260 = 208... but that would truncate real captured information.

Yelandkeil wrote on 5/10/2022, 5:19 PM

A source material with 10bit422 format is closely perfect for post-editing, or ideal for transferring to intermediate with same format.

Theoretically, you will never be able achieving that source quality because the Rec709standard products are all 8bit420 and the Rec2020 (including HDR10) products require 10bit420.

And there's no bitrate quantifications for HEVC without other factors such as resolution etc.

Consider 1stly which standard/purpose, then the bitrate/quality. Aberrance will be banned e.g. by YT, or any Hardware player/displayer...

Last changed by Yelandkeil on 5/10/2022, 5:21 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Musicvid wrote on 5/10/2022, 6:15 PM

Assuming a nondeficient bitrate:

Temporal quality? Both of them.

Spatial quality? Neither of them.

cniedzi wrote on 5/11/2022, 7:53 AM

Thx for your answers. Given 4k 422 10bit 341Mb/s source (EOS R6) what bitrate and bit depth do you advise to export 420 4k video to be played on media plaer & 4k 10bit TV?

Musicvid wrote on 5/11/2022, 8:33 AM

The HEVC HDR10 template appropriate to your video dimensions and frame rate?

cniedzi wrote on 5/11/2022, 9:38 AM

The HEVC HDR10 template appropriate to your video dimensions and frame rate?

But what bitrate?

Yelandkeil wrote on 5/11/2022, 11:42 AM

Are you honest to learn or just play with words?

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus Bios2803: 
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Windowspro 10.0.19044.2075  
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Vegaspro20 + Handbrake/XMediaRecode + DVDArchi7 
Acidpro10 + SoundForgpro14.0.0.65 + SpectraLayerspro7 

K-LitecodecPack1662 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback) 

cniedzi wrote on 5/11/2022, 2:37 PM

Are you honest to learn or just play with words?

I hoped my question was clear... I'm curious what bitrate gives the best reasonable quality taking my conditions into account?

Yelandkeil wrote on 5/11/2022, 3:31 PM

You still didn't get the point:

Ecoding to endproduct between bitrate and "best" quality is a balance between saving bandwidth and providing visual acceptable motion images.

Optically you can't distinguish the following 2 clips which best or not that best. The HEVC one has the volume of 150MB and its Bits/Pixel*Frame=0.080; the ProRes intermediate, volume=7.30GB, Bits/Pixel*Frame=3.998.

Don't ask me why that intermediate so, if you want "best" quality in your mind/eye, here's an old article to study.


Last changed by Yelandkeil on 5/11/2022, 3:33 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

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DPort: 2xSamsung-LU28R55 10bit4k60Hz 300cd/m²HDR10 
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ALC1200-TOSLINK: LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar 
USB Input: IK Multimedia iRigKeys MIDI24 
USB Device: Ultron CardReader/Writer 

Windowspro 10.0.19044.2075  
DirectX 12_2 Ultimate, Direct3D11Package installed 
OpenGL 4.6.14800 Compatibility Profile Context Version 22.5.1 30.0.15021.11005

Vegaspro20 + Handbrake/XMediaRecode + DVDArchi7 
Acidpro10 + SoundForgpro14.0.0.65 + SpectraLayerspro7 

K-LitecodecPack1662 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback) 

Yelandkeil wrote on 5/11/2022, 3:55 PM

I've collected a clip similar like yours - a LOG clip - my machine can play it well but VEGAS' timeline lacks.

Transcode into intermediate, adjust its color space as desired and integrate it into your timeline story.

After all done, the "best" quality with xyz bitrate.

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus Bios2803: 
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ALC1200-TOSLINK: LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar 
USB Input: IK Multimedia iRigKeys MIDI24 
USB Device: Ultron CardReader/Writer 

Windowspro 10.0.19044.2075  
DirectX 12_2 Ultimate, Direct3D11Package installed 
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Vegaspro20 + Handbrake/XMediaRecode + DVDArchi7 
Acidpro10 + SoundForgpro14.0.0.65 + SpectraLayerspro7 

K-LitecodecPack1662 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback) 

Musicvid wrote on 5/11/2022, 4:50 PM

I hoped my question was clear... I'm curious what bitrate gives the best reasonable quality taking my conditions into account?

Whatever your 4k teevee and media player will handle without dropping frames?

Best answer I can come up with, since you haven't told us your video frame rate.

cniedzi wrote on 5/11/2022, 5:53 PM

I hoped my question was clear... I'm curious what bitrate gives the best reasonable quality taking my conditions into account?

Whatever your 4k teevee and media player will handle without dropping frames?

Best answer I can come up with, since you haven't told us your video frame rate.

You’re right - frame rate was missing :) 59.94 fps. My concern is to encode 8 or 10 bit and how far should I go with bitrates to find a visual sweet spot (the point where a quality increase will be negligible). My MP can go up to (at least) 250 Mbs, but I have to have a file size in mind too :)

Musicvid wrote on 5/11/2022, 6:04 PM

I'm trying to lead you to the realization that playability comes first. Your source bitrate (300 Mbps) is ridiculous overkill.

Assuming you now intend HEVC 3840x2160 P60 HDR10 (ST2084PQ), try 100 Mbps and see if it plays on your home theater system without stutters. Proceed accordingly.

john_dennis wrote on 5/11/2022, 7:55 PM

@cniedzi

I can't give you data on HEVC since only one of my TVs play it and I'm unwilling to take the encoding time to save a few bits here or there from AVC. I can, however, give you actual picture quality data on AVC* renders at various bit rates for 1920x1080-29.97p 4:2:0 video. I suspect the curves have similar shapes with different knees at different bit rates.

This data was acquired by many, many renders and measurements with @wwaag's PQ analysis routines over a period of weeks when I theoretically could have been doing something useful for mankind. Since I'm on a rush to diminishing returns, I'll give you the answer to your question. All you have to do is ignore my ugly mug in the background while you study the slope of the curves until you intersect a bit rate and quality that you

  1. find acceptable
  2. can play on your hardware/software combination as @Musicvid alluded to previously.

* Medium complexity is a locked UHD camera shot of a well-lit stage play with a half dozen subjects running around on the stage.

I think you should post:

  • The Mediainfo report for all your source files
  • Provide the model number of any display devices that you use to view your masterpieces
  • Describe the delivery methodology, DLNA server, locally attached hard drives, etc.

So far you've provided us with nothing to work with and folks have made gallant efforts to help you without even knowing which version of Vegas Pro you plan to use.

Review this post: Information Required to help you.

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cniedzi wrote on 5/12/2022, 3:49 AM

@john_dennis

"All you have to do is ignore my ugly mug in the background  while you study the slope of the curves " :) :) :) - according to these slopes it looks like anything over 100 Mbs does not make sense for final export to be watched.

My source material is:

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Format Range@L5.2@High
Codec ID                                 : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                            : High Efficiency Video Coding
Duration                                 : 8 s 542 ms
Bit rate                                 : 343 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.690
Stream size                              : 349 MiB (99%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2022-05-01 15:15:21
Tagged date                              : UTC 2022-05-01 15:15:21
Color range                              : Full
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
Codec configuration box                  : hvcC

 

Display device is Samsung QE55Q70RATXXH, media player is Zidoo 1000 Pro with attached HD.

Regards

Musicvid wrote on 5/12/2022, 8:46 AM

Your video is BT.709. It is not HDR, it is SDR, chroma subsampling notwithstanding. Nor will it benefit from rendering to anything greater than vanilla 709 Limited. Although an HEVC file will be smaller, that codec provides no other advantage over AVC.

50-75Mbps output files are optimal; no advantage is to be gained at higher bitrates. Ordinary 8 bit 4:2:0 Rec 709 Limited is just fine too: you won't see a lot of difference by rendering10 bit unless there is visible banding. This is very ordinary footage; you could have shot at 75-100 Mbps without sacrificing one iota of quality.

While you are learning, I recommend sticking with the lowest common denominator until conditions, not imagination, dictate otherwise.