@3POINT

H264 in Voukoder can use the x264 encoder if selected. Or it can use any of the GPU assisted encoders. H264 is simply a generic term--the same as "avc". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Video_Coding

Currently running some HO RQ metics on favoured VBR 40/80, 35/70 and 28/50 (Magix 265)

They give MSE=23, PSNR=35, MSE=29, PSNR=34, MSE=29, PSNR=34 respectively.

My last three measurements for my most difficult source for AVC UHD.

Date: 2022/09/04  09:50:27  
Description: High Complexity
Frames Processed: 896
Processing Speed: 0.66 fps
Mean Squared Error: 12.458
Peak Signal to Noise Ratio: 42.911
Structural Similarity Metric: 0.7235

Date: 2022/09/04  10:16:53  
Description: High Complexity Spoiler VCE 38-60 High Quality Peak Constrained
Frames Processed: 896
Processing Speed: 0.68 fps
Mean Squared Error: 13.804
Peak Signal to Noise Ratio: 43.501
Structural Similarity Metric: 0.6782

Date: 2022/09/04  11:16:44  
Description: High Complexity VCE Photoshop Border 28-50 High Quality Peak Constrained
Frames Processed: 896
Processing Speed: 0.66 fps
Mean Squared Error: 13.159
Peak Signal to Noise Ratio: 43.781
Structural Similarity Metric: 0.6371

John, 28/50 not significantly different to 38/60

@wwaag I just wanted to point out that @andyrpsmith is using VBR rendering with Voukoder instead of CFR rendering.

80/160 gives mse=16, psnr=36 with a file size 2.8 times larger than 28/50

@wwaag I just wanted to point out that @andyrpsmith is using VBR rendering with Voukoder instead of CFR rendering.

Yes VBR just in Magix 265 now.

I'm wasting my time.

A directive about setting CRF for different resolutions can be found in the helpdirective of Handbrake, which also gives the warning that a too high quality setting can lead to non playable files.

According Handbrake:

Recommended quality settings

Recommended settings for x264 and x265 encoders:

RF 18-22 for 480p/576p Standard Definition

RF 19-23 for 720p High Definition

RF 20-24 for 1080p Full High Definition

RF 22-28 for 2160p 4K Ultra High Definition

Raising quality minus 1-2 RF may produce better results when encoding animated Sources (anime, cartoons). Lower quality settings may be used to produce smaller files. Drastically lower settings may show significant loss of detail.

Using higher than recommended quality settings can lead to extremely large files that may not be compatible with your devices. When in doubt, stick to the recommended range or use the default setting for the Preset you selected.

So the default CRF 23 setting of Voukoder is a quite good setting to start with....

When I tried CRF of 23 in Voukoder it produced a large file size of 1.2GB rather than 2-300MB I was looking for. I think I had to use about CRF 50 to get it down.

The filesize mainly depends of complexity of video as @john_dennis showed you. When you're aiming for a certain filesize instead of a certain quality than keep on with VBR rendering. I just go for quality.

Thanks, I'm looking for the best quality for a reasonable file size. The Magix 265 template has limited adjustments.

You will never get best quality and a reasonable filesize with Magix 264/265 as you can get with Voukoder.

You will never get best quality and a reasonable filesize with Magix 264/265 as you can get with Voukoder.

That's not my experience. If you use the ffmpeg x-libs, it's very slow. Similar to the MainConcept codec with similar quality. Hardware codecs yield pretty much the same speed and quality no matter how you fire them up. What I like about Voukoder is that it gives access to hardware codecs like av1 and software codecs like vp9 not otherwise available in Vegas.

For anyone interested, here's a link to an excellent article on understanding rate control.

https://slhck.info/video/2017/03/01/rate-control.html

@wwaag your link exactly explains that CRF encoding is the best possible mode to obtain best quality at smallest file size for archival purpose. For this reason I use and love Voukoder.

@Howard-Vigorita seeing is believing.

That article pays lip service to the desirability of getting the highest quality when you are constrained by either storage space or channel bandwidth. But it fails to note that the only way to come close to achieving that with crf or cq is to do a series of successive approximation renders till you hit the maximum size that will fit your media. When I was doing dvd authoring, I wasted allot time trying to do that. Probably why other devices in the real world, like cameras, never go that way.

When I did all my quality analysis tests, I included quite a few successive-approximation crf and cq renders trying to get as close as I could to comparing the quality of renders with similar bitrates. Could not help but notice that those renders were not consistently the highest quality by any of the 3 measures reported by ffmetrics. Debunked by their own tool.

@Howard-Vigorita keep on wasting your time. I'm just looking, like the most of us for a easy to achieve high quality final render that plays directly on my UHDTV with no visible loss. I don't care about a filesize that fits a specific media, because my media is a HDD connected directly to my UHDTV. Because I have also no need for dividing my movies in chapters and have therefore no problem with long GOP. Voukoder CRF rendering gives me for that purpose the highest quality at the smallest filesize.

"That article pays lip service to the desirability of getting the highest quality when you are constrained by either storage space or channel bandwidth."

Not really. The solution, as pointed out in that article is a 2-pass render that I always used back in the days when I was authoring DVDs. Given your constraints, the first pass decides how to best allocate bit rate, and the second pass implements it. AFAIK, neither Vegas or Voukoder support 2-pass rendering. You can use an external encoder such as TMPGEnc's Mastering Works or even HOS where the user enters the desired file size, which in turn sets the bit rate using an internal bit rate calculator.

For anyone interested, here's a link to an excellent article on understanding rate control.

https://slhck.info/video/2017/03/01/rate-control.html

Thank you for the link which I am digesting.

I have settled on 28/100 or 40/100 HEVC. I put together a one minute video of five clips containing a range of detail and movement from a visit to Chartwell Winston Churchill's home. Using HO RQ tool I got these results:

28/100 file size 213MB, MSE=53 PSNR=31

40/100 file size 302MB, MSE=41 PSNR=32

40/100 giving a 29% improvement in MSE for a 42% increase in file size.

By comparison 264 40/100 gives file size 300Mb MSE=46 PSNR=32 1500 frames

Leaning towards 265 40/100 as what I will go with.

Visually 5/10 is horribly blocky, 10/20 shows slight blocking in fine detail, 20/40 is pretty good hard to see imperfections, 28/100 is very good no visible imperfections at 2/3m from screen, 40/100 shows good improvement in MSE number and no visible imperfections. Magix YUV lossless (over 8GB and 1250 Mbps) TV says not playing this, Prores HQ (over 6GB and 900Mbps) TV says not playing it.

Really like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread, I really appreciate it. Shows what a great forum this is.

The solution, as pointed out in that article is a 2-pass render that I always used back in the days when I was authoring DVDs. Given your constraints, the first pass decides how to best allocate bit rate, and the second pass implements it. AFAIK, neither Vegas or Voukoder support 2-pass rendering. You can use an external encoder such as TMPGEnc's Mastering Works or even HOS where the user enters the desired file size, which in turn sets the bit rate using an internal bit rate calculator.

2-pass rendering is a hybrid cfr/vbr approach that generally takes twice as long but would be quicker that doing 3 or more successive approximation cfr renders. I think Voukoder does support it if you select average bitrate abr strategy instead of crf . I don't know if the quality results would be any different than comparing vbr 1-pass to crf successive-approximation the way I tested it... will have to compare them some day and see.

The solution, as pointed out in that article is a 2-pass render that I always used back in the days when I was authoring DVDs. Given your constraints, the first pass decides how to best allocate bit rate, and the second pass implements it. AFAIK, neither Vegas or Voukoder support 2-pass rendering. You can use an external encoder such as TMPGEnc's Mastering Works or even HOS where the user enters the desired file size, which in turn sets the bit rate using an internal bit rate calculator.

2-pass rendering is a hybrid cfr/vbr approach that generally takes twice as long but would be quicker that doing 3 or more successive approximation cfr renders. I think Voukoder does support it if you select average bitrate abr strategy instead of cfr. I don't know if the quality results would be any different than comparing vbr 1-pass to cfr successive-approximation the way I tested it... will have to compare them some day and see.

For 265 Voukoder is the only option I think that offers 265 with 2-pass VBR

There appears to be no 2-pass option in Voukoder. All are single pass. Here are the strategies from the latest build:

ABR is the same option that Vegas uses.

For most users, however, there really is no need for 2-pass. Only if you are constrained by the file size you require--usually for DVD or BluRay authoring--does the need for 2-pass arise.