Future ProResRAW support

cliff_622 wrote on 3/31/2020, 11:19 PM

Looks like ProResRAW is getting more traction now with Edius and Adobe now supporting it today. (Adobe just received a public beta ProResRAW plugin this week)

Is Vegas going to get ProResRAW support soon? If so, will it happen in version 17 or will version 18 be necessary?

It looks like Atomos and Panasonic will have 5.9K, 12bit raw support for the Lumix S1H very soon now. (raw sensor data using HDMI as a data bus for the Ninja V to encode ProResRAW)

I have both the S1H and Atomos Ninja V so I'm interested to know if this will ever come to Vegas 17. (I hope so and I prefer Vegas over Adobe)

Thanks!

Comments

Musicvid wrote on 4/1/2020, 1:47 PM

Historically, Vegas has never licensed Apple encoders. That "could"change down the road. If the format takes off, there would be a significant delay until Magix writes its own third party codec.

You might try Happy Otter Import Assist to see if it opens with ffmpeg.

fr0sty wrote on 4/1/2020, 2:23 PM

Don't count on it coming to 17, for the reason above, licensing. There will be costs involved in making it happen, so a free update to an existing program doesn't make much business sense.

Reyfox wrote on 4/13/2020, 10:43 AM

Since I do not use ProRes and in the "here and now", there is not plans for me using it, would it be possible to make it a paid option to those that would want it?

cliff_622 wrote on 5/1/2020, 11:25 AM

Bump!.....with the new S1H firmware news with Atomos, is there new information about Vegas getting ProResRAW? We are hearing that Adobe is close to finishing beta testing.

Are there at least "talks" about the "possibility" of it in the shop? Anything at all?

Is anybody else wanting to see Vegas support ProResRAW??

wjauch wrote on 5/1/2020, 1:10 PM

I have no need for ProResRaw support however I agree support for it is needed. Support for Red R3d raw is several years behind in Vegas, and originally Vegas was one of the first NLEs to support R3d. I'd love to see Red R3d support brought up to date and absolutely ProResRaw (and Blackmagic Raw) support added, these formats will only be gaining as new more affordable cameras use them and if Vegas wants to survive/thrive support for new cameras/formats is necessary.

Greg-Kintz wrote on 5/1/2020, 7:07 PM

I missed your first posting on this Cliff, but I'll add a big "plus 1" to this request. Even if that would mean Magix adding it to their current Fo-Res (aka: Magix Intermediate codec) that does the same thing and could be interchangeable with the official ProRes Raw codec.

I've been seeing ProResRaw support grow, especially with it offering options like 12 bit and HDR support which can be an important feature for some looking at including those options in a professional asset exchange and delivery environment. While Magix can currently do HDR with H265, it is currently restricted just to the H265 highly compressed consumer delivery codec.

Musicvid wrote on 5/1/2020, 7:32 PM

See what comes with Vegas Pro 18. But no promises.

cliff_622 wrote on 5/1/2020, 8:59 PM

Is anybody aware of what the process to get access to ProResRAW? Adobe has done it and so has Edius. How does the license process differ from ProRes? Or does it at all?

Musicvid wrote on 5/1/2020, 11:33 PM

They purchase a per-user license from Apple. It's never happened with Vegas. Don't hold your breath.

fr0sty wrote on 5/2/2020, 12:18 AM

Never say never...

Musicvid wrote on 5/2/2020, 7:26 AM

I just think that when it appears in Vegas, it will have been written by Magix, not by Apple or ffmpeg.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 5/2/2020, 10:49 PM

Is anybody aware of what the process to get access to ProResRAW? Adobe has done it and so has Edius. How does the license process differ from ProRes? Or does it at all

My understanding is that Apple does not own the rights to ProResRAW. They license the raw compression technology they use from Red who owns the patent on it. Apple tried to invalidate the RedRaw patent last year and lost. I seem to recall that Sony tried to do the same in 2013 and they lost too. Anyone who wants to license ProResRAW needs to first cut a deal with Red.

Cameras: Canon XF305, JVC GV-LS2, Canon 6D w/L-glass line. (Mar 2020: testing Zcam E2)
Laptop: Dell XPS15-9570; i7-8750h 32gb (integrated Intel UHD-630 & Nvidia GTX-1050Ti)
Road: Intel NUC i7 8809g 32gb (integrated AMD VegaM 4gb graphics and Intel HD630)
Workstation: i9 9900k 32 gb (Sapphire AMD Radeon VII 16gb graphics and integrated Intel UHD630)
Workstation2: e5 1650v4 128 gb (Sapphire Nitro+ Vega64 8gb graphics)
Workstation3: i7-980X 24gb (Sapphire Nitro+ RX5700xt Navi 8gb graphics)
currently Vegas 17.452

cliff_622 wrote on 5/3/2020, 3:26 PM

As I understand it, RED has a patent that is weirdly specific. They own the right to:

1.) Compressed raw (not "uncompressed" raw)

Combined with

2.) "Internally" recorded inside the camera body.

This is why Sony, Atomos and other companies can build compressed raw recorders that are NOT part of the camera body itself. These are considered "external" raw recorders and get around RED's patent.

Blackmagic internal raw gets around RED by deBayering their RGGB raw and essentially "flattening it" to a full color file. They can argue against RED by saying "Our BlackMagic raw....is not "true" raw sensor data anymore". It's a great deBayered video file inside the camera.

Canon raw "light"? I have no idea! However, they might have made a deal with RED. It could be that RED gave Canon an internal raw patent license and Canon gave RED the Canon RF lens mount license? Or,...Canon raw "light" is just the same as BlackMagic raw and it's flattened too. I dont know about these ones.

 

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 5/4/2020, 12:06 AM

I think the stumbling block was that both Apple and RED were claiming the right to license ProResRAW and that was causing uncertainty with the camera makers and delaying their implementation. Should see wider implementation now that it's settled. On a side note, Z-Cam was often referring to it's ZRaw format as effectively equivalent to ProResRAW. But has now announced that ProResRAW support is also coming... maybe they cut a deal to license both. Btw, ZRaw drops into Vegas right now with no licensing or accommodation I've heard mentioned by Magix or Kinsen Loo.

Cameras: Canon XF305, JVC GV-LS2, Canon 6D w/L-glass line. (Mar 2020: testing Zcam E2)
Laptop: Dell XPS15-9570; i7-8750h 32gb (integrated Intel UHD-630 & Nvidia GTX-1050Ti)
Road: Intel NUC i7 8809g 32gb (integrated AMD VegaM 4gb graphics and Intel HD630)
Workstation: i9 9900k 32 gb (Sapphire AMD Radeon VII 16gb graphics and integrated Intel UHD630)
Workstation2: e5 1650v4 128 gb (Sapphire Nitro+ Vega64 8gb graphics)
Workstation3: i7-980X 24gb (Sapphire Nitro+ RX5700xt Navi 8gb graphics)
currently Vegas 17.452

adis-a3097 wrote on 5/4/2020, 1:59 AM

I think the stumbling block was that both Apple and RED were claiming the right to license ProResRAW and that was causing uncertainty with the camera makers and delaying their implementation. Should see wider implementation now that it's settled. On a side note, Z-Cam was often referring to it's ZRaw format as effectively equivalent to ProResRAW. But has now announced that ProResRAW support is also coming... maybe they cut a deal to license both. Btw, ZRaw drops into Vegas right now with no licensing or accommodation I've heard mentioned by Magix or Kinsen Loo.

Don't know about RED and Apple both claiming the right to license ProResRAW, but AFAIK RED holds patents on recording RAW in camera. Or something. Which is the reason you always had to record RAW externally (Sony, ARRI etc). BRAW is partially debayered, not true RAW, so there is that...

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 5/4/2020, 2:33 AM

A clarification on my previous post mentioning ZRaw: it drops into v16 of Vegas but not v17. Kind of strange.

Cameras: Canon XF305, JVC GV-LS2, Canon 6D w/L-glass line. (Mar 2020: testing Zcam E2)
Laptop: Dell XPS15-9570; i7-8750h 32gb (integrated Intel UHD-630 & Nvidia GTX-1050Ti)
Road: Intel NUC i7 8809g 32gb (integrated AMD VegaM 4gb graphics and Intel HD630)
Workstation: i9 9900k 32 gb (Sapphire AMD Radeon VII 16gb graphics and integrated Intel UHD630)
Workstation2: e5 1650v4 128 gb (Sapphire Nitro+ Vega64 8gb graphics)
Workstation3: i7-980X 24gb (Sapphire Nitro+ RX5700xt Navi 8gb graphics)
currently Vegas 17.452

cliff_622 wrote on 5/5/2020, 10:46 PM

I just sent a suggestion to Atomos tonight asking them to make this:.......

An extremely SIMPLE Windows app that will batch process your Ninja V ProResRAW files into a standard ProRes HQ video file for ALL NLE's to use. It only has to do two things, batch process those ProResRAW files and apply a proper raw to log curve into the new video files and we just let that .exe run on your folder while you sleep!

No editing, no cutting, no fancy UI, no graphics, no preview screen, no audio....no nothing...but a bare-bones batch decoder-encoder app.

I figure that Atomos could get the ProResRAW liscense and ProRes HQ liscense easily from their buddies at Apple.

If they did that? We could all shoot in ProResRAW and shelf that as our "film-nagative" and work with the ProRes HQ files on ANYthing we want....including Vegas.

I hope they take my advice as I can't imagine this would take Atomos long to make. Even a bare-bones command line .exe or batch file will work! It needs no user interface to develop!

What do you guys think?

JN- wrote on 5/6/2020, 5:47 AM

@cliff_622 I know this isn’t the same type of media at all, but Samsung did something similar. I have the Samsung NX500 mirrorless camera. It saves video files in hevc internally. When the camera (with its big brother) launched there was next to nothing in NLE hevc support, so the app supplied with the camera batch converted all of your OOC hevc files to h264.

Last changed by JN- on 5/6/2020, 5:48 AM, changed a total of 2 times.

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cliff_622 wrote on 5/16/2020, 4:30 PM

We can now add ANOTHER camera to the ProResRAW world this week. ZCamE2

Seemingly the new Sony FX6 will have raw output for recording ProResRAW as well as the current Sony FX9.

Also,..there is talk about the new Lumix GH6 will also have HDMI raw that Atomos will record ProResRAW for too.

Before 2020 is over, we will have probably 5 or 6 even MORE cameras that can output raw over HDMI that will be used to record ProResRAW.

Vegas folks....any comments on this growing trend?

CT

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 5/16/2020, 5:18 PM

We can now add ANOTHER camera to the ProResRAW world this week. ZCamE2

Really? No, not really. From the .95 firmware update I loaded last night: "12-Bit ProRes RAW recording over HDMI to the Ninja V 5” HDR monitor-recorder." Curious because the Sony sensor used in the Z-Cam has it's physical elements laid out 4:2:0. Even more curious is that every other sensor on the planet in current production is laid out the same way. And might I point out that no form of ProRes is supported by any gpu hardware for encoding or decoding... I think it's all just a conspiracy by Apple marketing to get everyone's video editing computers to run as badly as theirs.

Cameras: Canon XF305, JVC GV-LS2, Canon 6D w/L-glass line. (Mar 2020: testing Zcam E2)
Laptop: Dell XPS15-9570; i7-8750h 32gb (integrated Intel UHD-630 & Nvidia GTX-1050Ti)
Road: Intel NUC i7 8809g 32gb (integrated AMD VegaM 4gb graphics and Intel HD630)
Workstation: i9 9900k 32 gb (Sapphire AMD Radeon VII 16gb graphics and integrated Intel UHD630)
Workstation2: e5 1650v4 128 gb (Sapphire Nitro+ Vega64 8gb graphics)
Workstation3: i7-980X 24gb (Sapphire Nitro+ RX5700xt Navi 8gb graphics)
currently Vegas 17.452

cliff_622 wrote on 5/16/2020, 8:14 PM

We can now add ANOTHER camera to the ProResRAW world this week. ZCamE2

Really? No, not really. From the .95 firmware update I loaded last night: "12-Bit ProRes RAW recording over HDMI to the Ninja V 5” HDR monitor-recorder." Curious because the Sony sensor used in the Z-Cam has it's physical elements laid out 4:2:0. Even more curious is that every other sensor on the planet in current production is laid out the same way. And might I point out that no form of ProRes is supported by any gpu hardware for encoding or decoding... I think it's all just a conspiracy by Apple marketing to get everyone's video editing computers to run as badly as theirs.

ProResRAW is in beta with Atomos right now. The new Atomos firmware is expected to hit the streets on May 25 with the new Lumix S1H raw over HDMI firmware. The Shogun Inferno can already record ProResRAW from the Sony F5 and FS700 12bit raw as well as the EVA-1.

I'm just saying that cameras that will support raw over HDMI will grow fast in 2020 and Atomos will be there to take that raw output into ProResRAW right away.

Adobe and Edius are supporting it in Windows and it's fair to say that more and more and more people will be shooting with it and will expect Vegas to support it as we go down the road.

CT

cliff_622 wrote on 5/21/2020, 10:13 AM

Anybody else played with ProResRAW yet? I have been this week and it's pretty damn cool!

fr0sty wrote on 5/21/2020, 11:16 PM

We can now add ANOTHER camera to the ProResRAW world this week. ZCamE2

Seemingly the new Sony FX6 will have raw output for recording ProResRAW as well as the current Sony FX9.

Also,..there is talk about the new Lumix GH6 will also have HDMI raw that Atomos will record ProResRAW for too.

Before 2020 is over, we will have probably 5 or 6 even MORE cameras that can output raw over HDMI that will be used to record ProResRAW.

Vegas folks....any comments on this growing trend?

CT

The team is aware of it, and are working on it. It may come soon, it may come later, but just know they are well aware of the need to support it and are doing all they can to make it happen.

GigaBoots wrote on 5/22/2020, 5:10 AM

I definitely would appreciate BlackMagic Raw (BRAW) support. I film in nothing but that, and it'd be great to cut out the Resolve middle man.