No one can give learned responses about Vegas Pro levels handling without knowing your Vegas Pro version. The methodology changed in Vegas Pro 18.

In Videoscope, the files (when set to Full range) show a range of 16-255. I use the Brightness&Contrast filter and set the Contrast to 0.060 -- so the image fills the 0-255 range. Of course, I save it as full range.

Is this correct and optimal?

No, you would set them to true 16-235 using the Levels filter. You would see these using the Histogram in an 8-bit Legacy Project.

I was about to write a lengthy explanation of video levels, with cautionary advice.

Instead, here is a free LUT you can use to conform 16-255 to 16-235, which are the legal YUV 709 Limited levels for rendering without clipping.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10phnBR0LkFiGZcuTJedZi8PJ8W391LIH&authuser=musicvid%40gmail.com&usp=drive_fs

Please do not adjust your levels to 0-255 RGB, because then they will be clipped, illegal for delivery, or both. You want 16-235 YUV for any imaginable delivery in this century.

That said, if you would like some background on the subject without needing to overthink, here is a slightly whimsical article I wrote sometime back, before VP18 was released.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/pc-to-tv-levels-a-comedy-of-errors--107325/

I don't know what Sony you are using but suggest using a profile where the color range is actually limited. That's the reason I use Cine 2 over Cine 1. Otherwise you get to deal with LUTs or levels filters, etc. as described above.

@rgr | This may seem like a silly question, but how did you get that info you have about your XAVC-S video File? My Sony FDR-AX700 films in the Sony XAVC-S video format and I have been wondering the same as you with your question that you titled this thread with?

No one can give learned responses about Vegas Pro levels handling without knowing your Vegas Pro version. The methodology changed in Vegas Pro 18.

Vegas 19.

@rgr | This may seem like a silly question, but how did you get that info you have about your XAVC-S video File? My Sony FDR-AX700 films in the Sony XAVC-S video format and I have been wondering the same as you with your question that you titled this thread with?

I just played the mp4 file in MPC and looked in the properties.
Then I opened the file in Vegas, changed the range to Full and looked in Videoscope.

(SONY HX-90V)

That says "color range: Limited", which indicates a 16-235 source. Best to leave it there. If you do this in VEGAS, and you see overexposure, use the color grading panel color curves to dial the highlights back into range. but VEGAS should properly display it as long as you do not have the range set to full.

MPC-HC is overexposing the originals probably because it is trying to display it full range, when it is not. If you use the default 8 bit project mode in VEGAS, everything should render out correctly.

If the MPC displayed as Full range, I would not have overexposed white, while the black would be grayish.
And MPC reports "Input format: NV12 1920x1080, range: 16-235"

In Videoscope, the files (when set to Full range) show a range of 16-255. I use the Brightness&Contrast filter and set the Contrast to 0.060 -- so the image fills the 0-255 range. Of course, I save it as full range.

Is this correct and optimal?

No, you would set them to true 16-235 using the Levels filter. You would see these using the Histogram in an 8-bit Legacy Project.

Yes I know about it. But this is a video for my personal use, so having a source in 16-255 I prefer to have a wider range of colors than cropped. And all my video equipment plays YUV correctly in full range (tested), although it may internally convert the image to limited range (I don't know).

No one can give learned responses about Vegas Pro levels handling without knowing your Vegas Pro version. The methodology changed in Vegas Pro 18.

Vegas 19.

The temptation is to do just what you did. Unfortunately, it is not the best for your hybrid levels. To summarize, you pulled 16-255 out to 0-255 in a default (full range) project. Then, the renderer squeezed them back down to 16-235 for legal 709 delivery.

These are called "redundant" levels, and the stacking has reduced the output bit depth, which in turn reduces the number of colors and increases banding, sometimes dramatically.

The oldschool option in Vegas 19 is to choose an 8 bit Legacy Project, and using the Levels filter and Histogram, adjust the Output End slider until the levels are 16-235, and render. Yes, the Preview will look grayer than before, but the output levels will be correct for delivery and unclipped.

Or, simply apply the LUT I gave you anywhere in the effects chain, and it should work just as well. Yours is not an uncommon situation but honestly, most people just ignore it and pretend their highlights aren't clipped or their shadows aren't muddy.

An example of highlight and saturation recovery from Sony RX100 III footage, native 16-255.

No one can give learned responses about Vegas Pro levels handling without knowing your Vegas Pro version. The methodology changed in Vegas Pro 18.

Vegas 19.

The temptation is to do just what you did. Unfortunately, it is not the best for your hybrid levels. To summarize, you pulled 16-255 out to 0-255 in a default (full range) project. Then, the renderer squeezed them back down to 16-235 for legal 709 delivery.

No, I save as full range.

You should be rendering as video range with few exceptions.

You should be rendering as video range with few exceptions.

@RogerS Of interest what are the exceptions?

I think if you are rendering stills or intermediate file types that are intended to be full range. Also prepping for formats like Dolby Vision HDR that are full range. I expect we'll see more of this in the future as standards move beyond legacy ones from the CRT and broadcast era.

No, I save as full range.

Best of success, and welcome to the forum.

No, I save as full range.

Best of success, and welcome to the forum.

I tried using your LUT but it goes out of scale.
https://i.imgur.com/1E2Uddi.png

The upper range is OK.
https://i.imgur.com/NR0ko0G.png

What is the advantage of using a LUT instead of a Brightness&Contrast filter?

You have studio RGB levels checked so it should be 0-100 in that case (= 16-235).
[Edit] Are you in 8-bit full or 8-bit video mode?

In 8-bit video with video-range footage visually it will look dull so if you do further color correction by eye you'd want to use "adjust levels from studio RGB to computer RGB" in preferences/preview device if you're using an external monitor or preview levels from SeMW. https://www.semw-software.com/en/extensions/

In 8-bit full none of this is necessary as Vegas does levels transforms for you. You just need to bring the highlights of your footage into video range.

I tried using your LUT but it goes out of scale.

😶

I don't know what Sony you are using but suggest using a profile where the color range is actually limited. That's the reason I use Cine 2 over Cine 1. Otherwise you get to deal with LUTs or levels filters, etc. as described above.

I'm not sure what you mean. Cine 1 and 2 merely differ in their respective gamma curve, and to my knowledge have no influence on the actual range.

That said, I did encounter some confusion in Vegas when dealing with footage from my FS7 and older A7s1 at the time, as vegas would sometimes treat the footage as full range, sometimes not, regardless of the codec or gamma settings, which , ASAIK, can't deliberately be set to full or limited in camera.

@rgrI tried rendering limited-range projects with a customized full-range template. Didn't look right uploaded to YouTube. Easiest approach is to set the project to full and leave the render-range at the default limited-range. When I feel I need to edit with the project set to limited-range, I use the PC preset of the free SeMW Vegas extension and render preset defaults.

Cine 1 is 109% video levels and Cine 2 100% as documented by Sony. (Aka Hypergamma in the cinema line)

Cine 1 actually has slightly greater highlight range per tests I and Paul Leeming did for his Pro LUT but it's not worth the hassle of dealing with 16 to 255 flagged as limited.

Some formats are full range like Slog and that's how you "choose" it. It's easy to forget what profile something was shot in and Vegas doesn't know either, it just knows the flags.

Cine 1 is 109% video levels and Cine 2 100% as documented by Sony. (Aka Hypergamma in the cinema line)

Cine 1 actually has slightly greater highlight range per tests I and Paul Leeming did for his Pro LUT but it's not worth the hassle of dealing with 16 to 255 flagged as limited.

Some formats are full range like Slog and that's how you "choose" it. It's easy to forget what profile something was shot in and Vegas doesn't know either, it just knows the flags.

Thanks, that explains quite a few things!
I had never seen that table with the extra range info of the PPs, and wasn't awere that cine1 is 109% and cine 2 is 100%. The info I had at the time just explained the difference in gamma ( contrast, highlight rollof etc) between the cine modes in the A7s1.