Thanks for specifying that you want an intermediate, not a delivery codec.

You do want to check out the Magic YUV lossless AVI codecs. 8 bit is free, 10 bit with the Vegas 18 plugin will cost you 24 bucks. It renders 3840x2880 in Vegas Pro 18 (I just tested it). Here are some comparisons for you:

As you can see, it is 13% the size of Uncompressed in RGB mode. I wouldn't use UT codec any more; it chokes Windows security scan.

I see my dear friend John Dennis beat me to it again. I do need to polish my chops....

@Musicvid

"I do need to polish my chops..."

I'm just sleeping less than other people these days.

One problem solved! But another becomes apparent...

VOUKODER allowed me to render out a proper ProRes4444-XQ YUVA file with alpha (custom-set to 8bit, not 16bit) at my 5K project settings of (3840x2880).

However, VP18 refuses to see the alpha channel. The PROJECT MEDIA clearly says "Alpha=straight (unmatted)", too, which is also confirmed in the media's PROPERTIES. Instead, it shows as black. I've even added my usual lime-green background to check for transparency, and nope, no alpha.

Anyone else encountered this?

Yes, unfortunately you are correct. Voukoder is a very versatile add on, and is what i use for all my renders, sadly transparency in Vegas Pro is the only issue that it does not handle well. However since you are speaking of ProRes, have you tried the Vegas Apple ProRes render output?....... If you are still having issues then MagicYUV would be your best option.

I was led to Voukoder because Vegas Apple ProRes couldn't render larger than 2160p (I needed 2880p for a 5K project). As for MagicYUV, the post house rejected it for work on their system (this is THE boutique post house of Hollywood, I used to work there, they do every blockbuster franchise you've ever heard of, so...). Thanks though!

My suspicion then, is that they would have probably rejected the one from Voukoder also.... Pity the limitation in the Vegas Apple ProRes, cause they would definitely accept this.

Choose a post house that will work with you. Effetism is so 20th century.

@Glenn-C

From my MagicYUV RGBA .avi, I was able to use Shutter Encoder to render a flavor of Pro Res 444 XQ that has an alpha channel visible to Vegas 19.

Whether your post house will accept it is another thing.

PS

It's worth investigating whether Shutter Encoder will render from the signpost file of the latest Cumincode Frame Server. I promised to test it, but I have not. I've added it to my list of other things that I've not done.

@Glenn-C

From my MagicYUV RGBA .avi, I was able to use Shutter Encoder to render a flavor of Pro Res 444 XQ that has an alpha channel visible to Vegas 19.

Whether your post house will accept it is another thing.

 

That is interesting. I need to put Shutter Encoder through the paces and see what it will do.

@Glenn-C No mediainfo on the source except that it's 16mm 1.33 aspect color film. If it's Kodak standard 16mm, that would be double perf with a capture width of 10.26mm. Back in the olden days I always used 160 pixels/mm as a rule of thumb for the Kodak color film I worked with... or roughly 1640x1234 standard 16mm. If it was super16 single perf, that might boost width to 12.52 mm and resolution to 2003x1506. Looks like overkill to scan it at 3840x2880 unless the film was way finer grain.

So you might consider rendering the project from Vegas to a more convenient frame size and then upscaling it externally to the frame res size and res the client needs to work with. The Woodstock documentaries, for instance, look reasonably good with the narrators shot at high res along side the original 16mm Eclair footage which conveys its age.

My suspicion then, is that they would have probably rejected the one from Voukoder also.... Pity the limitation in the Vegas Apple ProRes, cause they would definitely accept this.

Oh yeah, my scans were in ProRes4444, they def accept it! Which is why it's baffling that an 8K-capable program like Vegas Pro can't render out 5K in ProRes...

(BTW - Voukoder isn't a codec, it's a rendering module. It harnesses the codecs within a given program, hence the specific Connectors you have to download for Premiere/Vegas/etc. It simply speeds up encoding and gets around some rendering limitations within the programs, per above.)

@Glenn-C No mediainfo on the source except that it's 16mm 1.33 aspect color film. If it's Kodak standard 16mm, that would be double perf with a capture width of 10.26mm. Back in the olden days I always used 160 pixels/mm as a rule of thumb for the Kodak color film I worked with... or roughly 1640x1234 standard 16mm. If it was super16 single perf, that might boost width to 12.52 mm and resolution to 2003x1506. Looks like overkill to scan it at 3840x2880 unless the film was way finer grain.

So you might consider rendering the project from Vegas to a more convenient frame size and then upscaling it externally to the frame res size and res the client needs to work with. The Woodstock documentaries, for instance, look reasonably good with the narrators shot at high res along side the original 16mm Eclair footage which conveys its age.

I'm confused as to why you're offering me advice counter to what I've stated regarding my client's requirements? There's no such thing as overkill when it comes to film negative, that's why film is great, you can always derive more information from it the higher up your scanning resolution goes.

You've also assumed three things: (1) that it's color (it's B&W) and (2) where this particular project will be exhibited, which is a gigantic screen at a stadium music festival. Regardless, it doesn't matter if it's a phone, a tv, or the O2 Arena -- the client wants what they want, and I intend to give it to them; and (3) that it was scanned at 3840x2880 -- it was scanned at 4864x3232 to include sprockets for stabilization purposes, then rendered down to 2880p for a 3840x2880 project. You don't scan at a lesser resolution because the stock is grainier; you still want to capture the grain structure (you know, like Citizen Kane, Taxi Driver...).

Also, having worked in the Hollywood post business for decades, your last suggestion would be immediately rejected at any reputable house: You're actually suggesting rendering down to a smaller frame size, only to then UPSCALE? And unnecessarily lose the resolution your scans have provided, only to then artificially recreate it? Are you serious?

I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but why some people on technical boards sometimes insist on divergent advice that has absolutely nothing to do with the initial question, is beyond me.

Choose a post house that will work with you. Effetism is so 20th century.

This is the top post house in L.A. Effetism or not, they have their pipeline which is rock solid and dependable, and those wanting top quality should acquiesce to their technical requirements.

No slight intended; I live and worked in Cowtown, USA, where the self-absorbed production shops suddenly went out of business about eighteen months ago...

Which is why it's baffling that an 8K-capable program like Vegas Pro can't render out 5K in ProRes...

Since Vegas adopted official Apple ProRes last year, it became all about licensure, the end cost of which is passed on to the consumer. Isn't it always...

No slight intended; I live and worked in Cowtown, USA, where the self-absorbed production shops suddenly went out of business about eighteen months ago...

Since Vegas adopted official Apple ProRes last year, it became all about licensure, the end cost of which is passed on to the consumer. Isn't it always...

This post house won't be going out of business. All the top directors (and studios) go there. I'm not sure what you mean by the latter comment, in terms of adopting ProRes vs Allowing it to render higher than 4K -- what's that have to do with $$ ?

Btw, what does effetism have to do with this? The definition of effete is usually a male displaying feminine attributes. Did you mean elitism?

GrassValley HQX or a DPX sequence will support your frame size and need for alpha channel.

@Glenn-C

If your post house will accept this ProRes file, I'll 'splane how I did it from Vegas Pro 18-527.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1nBNXenqh3ESZuYzqZdpjWMqdS8dPQMQJ?usp=sharing

General
Complete name                            : C:\Users\John\Desktop\Render\Delete Me\Vegas 18-527 Main Project_Apple_ProRes_4444_XQ.mov
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : QuickTime
Codec ID                                 : qt   0000.02 (qt  )
File size                                : 1.54 GiB
Duration                                 : 7 s 0 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 1 887 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-11-13 02:50:21
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-11-13 02:50:21
Writing application                      : Lavf59.5.100

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : ProRes
Format version                           : Version 0
Format profile                           : 4444 XQ
Codec ID                                 : ap4x
Duration                                 : 7 s 0 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 1 885 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 880 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 24.000 FPS
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:4:4
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 7.103
Stream size                              : 1.54 GiB (100%)
Writing library                          : Apple
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-11-13 02:50:21
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-11-13 02:50:21

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Codec ID                                 : sowt
Duration                                 : 7 s 0 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 1.28 MiB (0%)
Default                                  : Yes
Alternate group                          : 1
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-11-13 02:50:21
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-11-13 02:50:21

That's exactly the flavor of ProRes I'm looking for, and achieved in Voukoder. How'd you do it? I'm just shocked VP18 won't show its transparency. (I won't be moving to 19 just yet, too many projects in the pipeline to risk instability at the moment).

@Glenn-C

The rough Friday night demo:

• Render out of Vegas Pro 18-527 to any Video for Windows intermediate that is lossless and supports alpha. I chose Magic YUV RGBA.
• In Shutter Encoder render the Video for Windows intermediate to the ProRes flavor that you chose.

@Glenn-C

If you want to render directly from Vegas, you can use HappyOtterScripts. Here's a demo.

The downside is that, unlike Voukoder, it's a paid app, but it does work directly without having to render twice. Having said that, MagicYUV as demonstrated by @john_dennis is also a paid codec. The final ProRes, however, is all the same since HOS, Voukoder, and Shutter all use FFmpeg for encoding.