Video Colorspaces and Vegaspro-ACES

Yelandkeil wrote on 3/30/2021, 1:44 PM


0, 
Color space/YUV: video signal structure.
Color space/definition: color gamut that hardware should match or tolerate (e.g. Rec.709/sRGB).
Color space/specification: hardware parameters representing its performance (e.g. 76%sRGB, 450CD/m2).

1,
Video colors are saved in YUV, not RGB. 
Our eyes, camcorders and display panels all work in the RGB-modus. 
What's the hell that video must transcode its signal into YUV-modus and again back to RGB for displaying?
pic01_videocolors


1.1, 
Because our first video signal was black-white and that time the TV was black-white, too. Both of them were able to handle with one information: Y, the lightness. 
And that was enough. 

1.2, 
Engineers developed colorTV and colorcamcorder. 
They quickly found out, these hardware cannot deal with the whole RGB-spectrum like our human eyes. 
So, they defined the area that TV and camcorder can take/show as a colorspace. 
This definition changed from time to time, and comes finally to a very famous one: Rec.709. 
pic02_Rec.709


1.3, 
Engineers discovered from the very beginning, saving the captured information of a colorcamcorder direct into its RGB-space was almost impossible.
It requires too much bandwidth, no equipment could transport its signal.
Even if, this kind signal was not compatible with blackwhite TV which sit in millions of family that time! 
Engineers are genius. 
They divided video signal in 3 channels: 
Y carries lightness as it always does; U+V take the Cred and Cblue (the Cgreen can be easily recreated by differential coding).

1.4, 
YUV colorspace is born.
It uses 4:4:4, 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 pattern to (sub)sample any captured RGB. 
Its size is thus flexible, the signal is free from colorgamut definition, or any hardware specification. 
But to represent/translate the signal back into right RGB, additional information must be appended. 
pic03_videoINFO


2, 
As you see, the Rec.709 definition goes to Color Primaries. Yes, for a long time the TV and camcorder could only deal with Rec.709space, it becomes de facto standard. 
But gradually, new hardware with advanced performances come and come again, firstly for branch profi, then, largely into the everybody-can-buy-market. 
The de facto standard attempts to hold its position with LUT filters, or some thing like that for its editing environment. 
Finally it collapsed. 
As we know, this editing environment doesn't allow producing anything others than Rec.709 defined.
pic04_newspaces


2.1, 
There's a "none-standard" editing modus in Vegaspro called ACES: Academy Color Encoding System. 
This system sets the whole RGB area as a large logistic center. 
Materials for editing, no matter where they are come from, will be located into the correct (color) space. 
pic05_logisticentre


2.2, 
And logically you need monitor to monitor. 
pic06_monitoring


2.3,
No, not that way!
ACES doesn't take care of the materials them-self. It cares about which color space/definition they belong to. 
e.g. an sRGB-picture looks like before and after ACES knows its definition.
pic07_sRGB-image


And a Kodak dpx-format image looks like before and after I told ACES it could be a C-Log-file. 
pic07_C-Log


3, 
From where do I have the screen for ACES-show? 
Isn't ACES independent from hardware? - Yes, it is. 
It gives me, at the same time, a simulated pipeline, too.
This is the View Transform. 
Off means you are not using any simulation, you are in a virtual (so called 32-bit floating point) colorspace and you can still only produce Rec.709 video. 
pic08_V-Transform


After you take a display hardware you own, e.g. your normal computer monitor, for the simulation, 〔View Transform is selected as sRGB(ACES)〕, then you can edit any material in this simulated environment and out put your editing to any space kind of video. 
pic09_fromoldtime2moderntime


3.1, 
If you own an HDR-monitor, you can use the Vegaspro default settings for HDR-production with pleasure.
Thank you very much.

Last changed by Yelandkeil

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DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
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K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

Comments

alifftudm95 wrote on 3/30/2021, 2:03 PM

Great explanations!

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J-Toresen wrote on 3/30/2021, 2:05 PM

Thank you very much!

Jøran

walter-i. wrote on 3/30/2021, 2:24 PM

Thanks for the good explanation - I have bookmarked it.

 

set wrote on 3/30/2021, 5:40 PM

谢谢你的解释!

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Yelandkeil wrote on 3/30/2021, 6:30 PM

谢谢你的解释!

马来华人?

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

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DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

set wrote on 3/30/2021, 6:36 PM

谢谢你的解释!

马来华人?

印尼华人。你呢?

Last changed by set on 3/30/2021, 6:41 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Setiawan Kartawidjaja
Bandung, West Java, Indonesia (UTC+7 Time Area)

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OS: Win11 Home 64-bit Version 22H2 OS Build 22621.2428
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* I don't work for VEGAS Creative Software Team. I'm just Voluntary Moderator in this forum.

Yelandkeil wrote on 3/30/2021, 6:56 PM

华人,住德国。🙏

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

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*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
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*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
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DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

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set wrote on 3/30/2021, 7:08 PM

华人,住德国。🙏

啊! 很高兴认识你!Nochmals vielen Dank für diese Info.

So far I still dealing with the 8-bit range and Rec.709 sources, and these HDR, ACES, are still a challenging topic to understand. Keep sharing. 😊👍

Setiawan Kartawidjaja
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Video Card2: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 Ti 8GB GDDR6 (Driver Version 551.23 Studio Driver (Jan 24 2024 Release Date))
RAM: 32.0 GB
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Drive OS: SSD 240GB
Drive Working: NVMe 1TB
Drive Storage: 4TB+2TB

 

System 2-2018:
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Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 8750H CPU @2.20GHz 2.21 GHz
Video Card 1: Intel(R) UHD Graphics 630 (Driver 31.0.101.2111)
Video Card 2: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB GDDR5 VRAM (Driver Version 537.58)
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* I don't work for VEGAS Creative Software Team. I'm just Voluntary Moderator in this forum.

RogerS wrote on 3/30/2021, 8:25 PM

Ah, so 德国 means Germany? Interesting choice of characters.

The theory behind ACES makes sense to me, but in practice it seems very dependent on the quality of the IDTs (color spaces in Vegas). Just like the manufacturers' own conversion LUTs the IDTs, at least for Sony, don't seem terribly accurate. The combinations of gamuts/gammas supported by ACES are also limited (but growing).

I also don't see a way to accurately use LUTs in ACES mode, which is fine as it is a different mode of working, but something to be aware of.

Yelandkeil wrote on 3/31/2021, 3:24 AM

@set幸会幸会!

ACES is like a nut. Understanding it is not difficult but the challenge hard: you need an extrem powerful machine as nutcracker. In addition to this, Vegaspro is struggling on the way. Autolooks, Bézier Masking, Style Transfer...are still in the Rec.709 world.

The de facto standard will keep live for 15 years? Or 20.

Last changed by Yelandkeil on 3/31/2021, 3:18 PM, changed a total of 3 times.

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
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DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

RogerS wrote on 3/31/2021, 4:04 AM

I'm not Japanese but I read Japanese. 日本在住米国人 (米国=美国)

For IDT (Input Device Transform), it means the profiles that define the color of different devices so they can be used in the big ACES gamut. Vegas calls an ACES Input Transform a color space, though that is confusing. It is 2.3 in your explanation above. I don't mean a circuit.

ACES defines it as:

In the Academy Color Encoding System (ACES), the Input Device Transform (IDT) converts non-color rendered RGB image values from a given camera system or other image capture device to ACES RGB relative exposure values.

I wasn't so impressed with Sony S-log 3 color space I tested. ACES is better than nothing but I'm not starting from nothing- I use technical correction LUTs to save time matching cameras and improving camera color. See the Leeming LUT which is made using a very high-quality individually measured color chart and continually refined (I am sure there are others, too).

ACES explains IDTs more on p. 18 of the primer:

But how do the images get from the camera into the ACES color space? That job is handled by another transform that’s part of the ACES system. The Input Transform, sometimes referred to as IDT (Input Device Transform), is designed to be unique and individual to each camera.28Many Input Transforms are actually developed by the ACES Logo Program camera manufacturers for their own devices. Every camera chip has unique properties researched and designed by the companies that manufacture them. Some aspects of the chips are proprietary intellectual property of the manufacturers. As such, the most accurate mapping of the chip color space into ACES2065-1 can best be achieved by the camera companies that fully understand their products.

ACES PRIMER & GLOSSARY - English (6.9 MB)

In theory the manufacturers should be able to accurately characterize their own products but in practice it doesn't seem as good. There may also be changes between models (say the a7S to a7SIII) but the S-log LUTs and IDTs provided by Sony are identical.

For the difference between LUTs and IDTs ACES explains:

A LUT (Lookup Table) is another type of transform used in digital production. A LUT is a set of numbers that, when applied, modifies the appearance of an image—without changing the original data.ACES is an entire family of transforms designed to move image data from one color space to another. These transforms have a purpose similar to LUTs. Unlike LUTs, however, ACES transforms are capable of handling colors that fall outside the expected color spaces. They generally provide a smoother and more accurate translation to the target colors. For the technically curious, these ACES transforms are expressed using a computer language called CTL (Color Transformation Language).

Yelandkeil wrote on 3/31/2021, 4:27 AM

Off-topic.

Last changed by Yelandkeil on 3/31/2021, 3:20 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

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*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

RogerS wrote on 3/31/2021, 4:40 AM

I'm like that guy except I don't buy PC parts, or film myself : )

I am not trying to argue but to understand. I have a passion for accurate, attractive-looking color and want to use the best tools that will help me achieve it. For that reason I read about ACES a few years ago, tried it, gave up on it, and then tried it again recently in Vegas.

ACES is one method of color correction, and if I were doing HDR, I would use it. I think it might make sense for big productions and VFX work where you want to get computer generated graphics and real footage into a standardized color space and output for different uses.

In Vegas the performance penalty you described is big, there aren't so many IDTs, and the IDTs that do exist don't seem to be any more accurate than what I can do in other ways. The theory behind ACES is great, but in practice it creates new problems, too.

I'd be interested in examples and screenshots of how you use ACES (including what camera and settings you use) and the results you get from it.

Yelandkeil wrote on 3/31/2021, 5:56 AM

Off-topic.

Last changed by Yelandkeil on 3/31/2021, 3:20 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
*Thermaltake TOUGHPOWER GF1 850W 
*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

RogerS wrote on 3/31/2021, 6:10 AM

Interesting- are the characters: 意志联邦 chosen just for their sounds? 德 has a nice meaning to it (virtuous?)
Meiguo is also a nice meaning- beautiful country.

In Japanese the US is 亜米利加, though 米国 and アメリカ(America)合衆国 is more common.
Chinese characters aren't used so much for European country names, they are just said phonetically these days. France starts with Buddha (仏蘭西) and Germany is 独逸, which seems strange to me.

Yelandkeil wrote on 3/31/2021, 7:01 AM

Off-topic.

Last changed by Yelandkeil on 3/31/2021, 3:20 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
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*ADATA XPG GAMMIX S11PRO; 512GB/sys, 2TB/data 
*G.SKILL F4-3200C16Q-64GFX 
*AMD Ryzen9 5950x + LiquidFreezer II-240 
*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC) 

RogerS wrote on 3/31/2021, 8:13 AM

What do you mean my combination is incorrect- this is all correct, if old-fashioned Japanese, using Chinese characters! It's also phonetic, but Japanese pronunciation is quite different from Chinese, so of course the characters are different.

In Japanese 法 is pronounced hoh so it wouldn't work for France. 德意志 would be Toku-i-shi but the meaning is the same, "virtuous will"

仏蘭西 Fu- ran- su with Fu (Buddha, orchid, west). (Why are France and flannel similar- is flannel from France?)
独逸 Doi tsu = Germany but not used much I think. ドイツ is common
Australia is 豪州 but I have no idea why (goh shuu?)

I like the combination of characters for the Aegean!

vkmast wrote on 3/31/2021, 9:31 AM

Let's change the topic.

Maybe not? Please continue the linguistic discussion in an Offtopic thread.

 

Yelandkeil wrote on 3/31/2021, 3:22 PM

@vkmast, i apologize

-- Hard&Software for 5.1RealHDR10 --

ASUS TUF Gaming B550plus BIOS3202: 
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*XFX Speedster-MERC319-RX6900XT <-AdrenalinEdition 24.12.1
Windows11Pro: 24H2-26100.3915; Direct3D: 9.17.11.0272

Samsung 2xLU28R55 HDR10 (300CD/m², 1499Nits/peak) ->2xDPort
ROCCAT Kave 5.1Headset/Mic ->Analog (AAFOptimusPack 6.0.9403.1)
LG DSP7 Surround 5.1Soundbar ->TOSLINK

DC-GH6/H-FS12060E_HLG4k120p: WB=manual, Shutter=125, ISO=auto/manual
HERO5_ProtuneFlat2.7k60pLinear: WB=4800K, Shutter=auto, ISO=800

VEGASPro22 + XMediaRecode/Handbrake + DVDArchi7 
AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack17.8.0 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10-Videoplayback on PC)