I also want to create an intermediate file with a resolution higher than VP 20 ProRes supports. Maybe I should have started a new thread but I'm having the same issue.
The media info is pasted below.
I want to do this because I am trying to render a long multi-camera project with noise reduction and I am noticing in my case that Vegas seems to be only using the iGPU for HVEC video decode and that is the bottleneck currently in the rendering process. I am hoping that if I replace with video with some appropriate intermediate format I might get better performance. I tried to use Voukoder but VP 20 won't open its CineForm or ProRes outputs at least the way I am trying to do it. Maybe ffmpeg should be the tool I should use but I'm having trouble figuring out what the correct command should be. Please let me know if you have any suggestions:
Format : MPEG-4 Format profile : Base Media / Version 1 Codec ID : mp41 (mp41) File size : 10.7 GiB Duration : 12 min 48 s Overall bit rate : 120 Mb/s Encoded date : UTC 2023-02-25 01:05:40 Tagged date : UTC 2023-02-25 01:05:40
Video ID : 1 Format : HEVC Format/Info : High Efficiency Video Coding Format profile : Main@L6@Main Codec ID : hvc1 Codec ID/Info : High Efficiency Video Coding Duration : 12 min 48 s Bit rate : 120 Mb/s Width : 5 312 pixels Height : 3 984 pixels Display aspect ratio : 4:3 Frame rate mode : Constant Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS Color space : YUV Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 Bit depth : 8 bits Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.236 Stream size : 10.7 GiB (100%) Title : GoPro H.265 Language : English Encoded date : UTC 2023-02-25 01:05:40 Tagged date : UTC 2023-02-25 01:05:40 Color range : Full Color primaries : BT.709 Transfer characteristics : BT.709 Matrix coefficients : BT.709 Codec configuration box : hvcC
Audio ID : 2 Format : AAC LC Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity Codec ID : mp4a-40-2 Duration : 12 min 48 s Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 192 kb/s Nominal bit rate : 48.0 kb/s Channel(s) : 2 channels Channel layout : L R Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz Frame rate : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF) Compression mode : Lossy Stream size : 17.4 MiB (0%) Title : GoPro AAC Language : English Encoded date : UTC 2023-02-25 01:05:40 Tagged date : UTC 2023-02-25 01:05:40
Other #1 ID : 3 Type : Time code Format : QuickTime TC Duration : 12 min 48 s Bit rate mode : Constant Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS Title : GoPro TCD Language : English Encoded date : UTC 2023-02-25 01:05:40 Tagged date : UTC 2023-02-25 01:05:40
Other #2 Type : meta Duration : 12 min 48 s Bit rate mode : Variable
The Voukoder output file when using the ProRes template has a .mkv extension... I'm in the middle of a render right now so I can check the specific settings but will send them in about 2 hours.
I probably should explain why I am trying to create a lossless (intermediate) video file in the first place because there might be a better way to approach this. I am working on a video that will be rendered at 4k UHD (3840x2160) There were three cameras used for this video. A Panasonic X2 (AVC 3840x2160) 29.97fps, a GoPro 11 (HEVC 5312x3984) 23.97fps and a GoPro 10 (512x3840) 23.97fps. This was a darkly lit rock concert so all three tracks need noise reduction for the video to be useable, especially for the GP cameras.
I have pretty much finished the editing. For this video the video from the two GP cameras is cropped to 4k UHD but also panned so the video in the editor needs to be full resolution. The noise reduction, color grading, etc. are of course different for each camera and I have applied them at the event level but as it has turned out I probably could have applied the color grading and noise reduction at the track level.
Anyway, this video when rendering at 4k UHD standard MAGIX H.264 30fps renders at about 1 fps when the GP11 camera is active and about 5 fps when the Panasonic X2 camera is active. The GP10 active render speed in between those. It turns out that the bottleneck is the decoding of the HEVC which from watching the task manager is taking the most time and for some reason VP only uses the intel iGPU for this. When I imported those HVEC files VP had to go get (or enable) a codec. My system utilization except for the iGPU is minimal during the renders.
What I have found is if I replace the HVEC footage with another format that can be decoded faster either in the CPU or the NVIDIA GPU the rendering (most of the load is the Neat V5 noise reduction) goes a lot faster - over 2x faster. If I could get the final render to use the prerender files then as I make tweaks to the camera cuts, etc. it would be practical for me to work at these slow render speeds but at least for me, I really like to render something and watch the rendered file on my TV which is the only true 4k "monitor" I have. Since I think that it is not possible for the final render to use the prerendered video even though the manual says it is possible I at least want to replace the HVEC footage with some lossless or nearly lossless fast to decode format.
For a test I am currently using HandBrake using its "Production Max" profile to create the intermediate files and I just replaced the GP H.265 clip with that.
In a test project with only the GP11 5312x3984 I compared the render time when cropping to 4k UHD and applying Neat noise reduction with the same configuration that I am using for the project.
For a short render comparison using the MAGIX H.264 standard template for 4k UHD 29.97 fps with the video cropped to 3840x2160 and with Neat noise reduction the average frame rate when using the HandBrake video version was 6.05 fps. When doing the same render using the H.265 GoPro footage the average render speed was 1.92 fps so using the intermediate file is about 3x faster. The original file size was 11.2GB, the output from HandBrake is 96.2GB. In the context of the project using the HandBrake file replacing the original file the render average fps increase is about 2.6 - but that's a lot better than nothing.
In the context of the actual project with the three cameras the difference when I replace the H.265 with whatever HandBrake produced - I pasted that at the bottom of this post.
So, now that I have hopefully explained what I am trying to accomplish we come full circle to what is the best way to produce a lossless or nearly lossless video in 5312x3984 resolution that VP 10 easily digests? Also, is there a better way to go about this?
Test.mp4 Format : MPEG-4 Format profile : Base Media / Version 2 Codec ID : mp42 (mp42/iso2/avc1/mp41) File size : 91.8 GiB Duration : 12 min 48 s Overall bit rate : 1 026 Mb/s Encoded date : UTC 2023-03-12 13:53:52 Tagged date : UTC 2023-03-12 13:53:52 Writing application : HandBrake 1.6.1 2023012300
Video ID : 1 Format : AVC Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec Format profile : High@L6 Format settings : CABAC / 1 Ref Frames Format settings, CABAC : Yes Format settings, Reference frames : 1 frame Codec ID : avc1 Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding Duration : 12 min 48 s Bit rate : 1 025 Mb/s Width : 5 312 pixels Height : 3 984 pixels Display aspect ratio : 4:3 Frame rate mode : Variable Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS Minimum frame rate : 23.974 FPS Maximum frame rate : 23.981 FPS Color space : YUV Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 Bit depth : 8 bits Scan type : Progressive Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.021 Stream size : 91.8 GiB (100%) Writing library : x264 core 164 r3100 ed0f7a6 Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=1 / deblock=1:-2:-2 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=6 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=0 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=48 / lookahead_threads=8 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=0 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=0 / weightp=1 / keyint=12 / keyint_min=1 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=12 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=2.0 / qcomp=0.80 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:0.50 Encoded date : UTC 2023-03-12 13:53:52 Tagged date : UTC 2023-03-12 13:53:52 Color range : Limited Color primaries : BT.709 Transfer characteristics : BT.709 Matrix coefficients : BT.709 Codec configuration box : avcC
Audio ID : 2 Format : AAC LC Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity Codec ID : mp4a-40-2 Duration : 12 min 48 s Source duration : 12 min 48 s Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 265 kb/s Channel(s) : 2 channels Channel layout : L R Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz Frame rate : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF) Compression mode : Lossy Stream size : 24.3 MiB (0%) Source stream size : 24.3 MiB (0%) Title : Stereo Language : English Default : Yes Alternate group : 1 Encoded date : UTC 2023-03-12 13:53:52 Tagged date : UTC 2023-03-12 13:53:52
I'd convert the HEVC files if they aren't editing well (choppy playback) but wouldn't just to boost render times as you lose time on the front-end with the conversion. You don't need 4:2:2 as this is an 8-bit 4:2:0 source so what you are doing in Handbrake is fine.
If you prefer ProRes to AVC you could go straight to pseudo-ProRes with Shutter Encoder and batch convert all the GoPro files at the same time. Otherwise you can also do a conversion to h.264 at a CRF of say 20 for these files. Or go a bit higher for bitrate (17?) Limit the GOP for smoother editing in Vegas (in advanced settings set it to your framerate- 25, 30, 60, etc.) Results will be similar to Handbrake for this but I prefer the interface and greater variety of formats you can convert to.
@Greg-Smith9805 said... So, now that I have hopefully explained what I am trying to accomplish we come full circle to what is the best way to produce a lossless or nearly lossless video in 5312x3984 resolution that VP 10 easily digests? Also, is there a better way to go about this?
Only lossless formats I know of that vp20 digests at all are hevc and avi and, of those 2, avi is the easiest to digest. I haven't been able to get Vegas to read Vokouder ffv1/avi but maybe I'm missing a codec or something. A number of folks use Magic YUV which also does lossless avi so you might try that. Vokouder ProRes-KS isn't lossless but it's a pretty high bitrate intermediate more compact than avi and pretty easy to digest. I would use the mov container rather than mkv... I think Vegas support for mkv is still experimental.
Todd, Roger, and Howard - Thank you all for your suggestions. I tried to render the whole project overnight and it stalled part way through so of course now I am going to search for potential fixes. It seems as though the rendering gets progressively slower until it stalls. I'm thinking that if I can render in Vegas and produce intermediate files with the noise reduction that might be the next step but obviously I have other issues with the render settings, etc. It looks like Voukoder with a .mov container might be promising. Are there any log files that I should collect that might be deleted when I cancel this render?
John, thanks for telling me about View Reliability History and putting together the video to explain how to dig down. I was able to pull up the Reliability History and not to my surprise with all the Vegas crashes and earlier in the week reinstalls etc., it is not too good. I really wanted to get a good draft out to the band before this trip. The best I could do was to get a 1080p video with no noise reduction to render to completion. Rendering at both 4k UHD and 1080p with noise reduction on stalls right around frame 35,000. 35,243 almost on the money. This happens if the preview RAM is set to 0, 1/3 of my 64GB of RAM or the default value that comes up after a program reset (shift + ctl) double click. After I gave up on 4k and NR I started a 1080p render at it was slow from the start. I cancelled that render, closed Vegas brought it up with a program reset and it flew. A lot of the time the fps was over 100 with an average around 68. With NR enabled for both 1080p and 4k around frame 35,000 the frame rate slows to a crawl and the memory starts hemorrhaging - jumps about 0.1 GB per second until the program stalls or just closes. I'm not sure if that is also 0.1GB per frame, I was staring at the Task Manager at the time.
When I get back on Friday I think that I will try to use Voukoder ProRes with a .mov container with noise reduction turned on for each camera video file individually and then replace the video files with those. It will take forever and eat up a ton of drive space but that is all I can think of for a next step short of starting the project over. There are 100's of transitions and a few picture in picture with cookie cutter effects that I would like to keep since it took a long time to get all the key frames and the two video tracks that are higher than 4k resolution pan around quite a bit. I think my new computer HW is OK. I built that Vegas commercial "benchmark" with no problem and finished the render in 1:20 which was the 4th fastest listed when I did it a few days ago. I have seen a number of posts suggesting that the preview memory needs to be set to zero. Do you know if Magix is working on fixing what appears to be a memory leak? I understand that this is complicated SW and it seems to try learn how to optimize itself. Whatever is stored that gets reset I'm guessing has something to do with it. It sure made my render go at least 5x faster at least at the start. Thanks again and please send any additional suggestions. I'll also try to send more details but I have to leave.