Thanks for your interesting narrative.

For peer support for a specific issue, start here:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/important-information-required-to-help-you--110457/

For learning Vegas functionality and video editing in general, some good resources can be found here:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/got-questions-consult-the-tutorials-first-please--120282/

If you would just like to post and chat about your Vegas experiences, we'd love to join you in a conversation here:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/offtopic-forum/

Welcome to the forums!

The last thing I want to see as a user in VP20 announce, are social features and tons of other features that make these soft even slower. Until the whole engine is updated or completely changed in Vegas Pro, it's not going to be mainstream and usable for anyone who does something more, than Full HD - 4K 30\60 in 8 bit. Copying all the features from other editing swift won't get new people to use it, cause it is as slow as it was 8 years ago. Those are completely wrong prioroties and as a biggest fan of these software, I'm sad to say that I will have to spend months or years to learn to work in something else, cause as I mentioned before, it's unusable. People want to use their hardware for better experience, and upgrading from 1080Ti to 3090, gave me 0% increase, either in Rendering, or preview. No negative to anyone, but those are straight facts for years, and nothing was made in last 8 years to increase the performance.

Magix was making the same mistake with Samplitude. It eventually DID get more responsive. But this is ALL MARKETING DEPT driven - who think "BELLS AND WHISTLES" is what creates new customers, and to hell with the loyal customer base. BASTA!! ( @fr0sty - an apparent "insider" for some time now, i.e., user who is privy to dev. strategy sessions - assures us all that a real "sea change" is on the horizon, as far as PRIORITIES - well, I'll believe it when I see it, though I don't think he's blowing smoke, either).

("Social features"......YES... you nailed it) ...Call it "bloatware" and for me, my favorite term for that is "bells and whistles" which are mostly distractions. YES - if you can improve motion tracking, great. When they put in clunky color correction that I could not address with my Keyboard (for fine tuning) I went back to VEGAS LEGACY COLOR CORRECTION tools (pretty good, btw) which DID ALLOW for that KB adjustment. "Hamburger menus" was another waste of time. "Story board" editing...and it goes on and on, ALTHOUGH if some of that is really well done, I'm not complaining, but those shouldn't take precedent, EVER, from ROCK-SOLID SPEED/RESPONSIVENESS concerns.

I quite disagree with the idea that Vegas is not Adobe, (as in full functionality) THE STRENGTH of VEGAS is the compositing is available right on the timeline (don't have to round trip to AE, for example, and you CAN interior round trip to Hit FIlm MARVELOUS, BOTH/AND , not EITHER/OR) in a WYSIWYG immediacy - and that coupled to GREAT (for NLE) audio. That makes it an ADOBE KILLER if they can better manage (probably code re-write) the sluggishness issues.

I think SHORT TERM band-aid FIX would be (VEGAS DEV.: @VEGASDerek please check me out here) a FREEZE function ......

(IOW< BAKE FX into the event, that would be easily reversabe) AS exists in Samplitude, would be a difference maker, IOW, not necessitating a selective pre render - or nested projects, (which almost always fail for me and others)

Magix DEV. what do you think? FREEZE FUNCTION....YES/NO?

Seb, you can use the keyboard num pad for fine tuning the color grading panel... Also, let's not exaggerate my "insider status", I don't sit in on their meetings, but I do keep in touch with them with suggestions to help them keep a finger on the pulse of the community, and I assist with testing new features. That's about it.

As for "social features", let's keep in mind some of these things are game changers for some of us.

File drop, for instance. I am part of a team of videographers from all over the country that comes together to film music festivals all over the world. We shoot as much as 16TB of video across dozens of SD cards over a week. Data management can become tricky, especially when our last shoot for the night on Sunday night is at 2AM, and our shuttle to the airport leaves at 8AM... and we've got a terabyte or so of data to dump off of SD cards onto the editor's hard drives. Often times we have to use google drive to finish sending our clips to him afterwards.

Now, not only can I send it directly to his timeline, but I also can access his project and color it for him after he finishes cutting it, then add motion graphics in VEGAS Effects, then leave notes directly on his timeline to let him know if I needed him to make a change, pick a different shot, or asking what he thought about this particular look (and he can reply to those notes). All without ever leaving the VEGAS suite of products. It simplifies the whole process. All the other cam ops can also upload their media directly into his timeline, without them having to own any VEGAS products, or even a Windows device.

The content library has been a godsend for adding quick music to corporate and wedding videos. I don't use much stock footage, but knowing it is there is great.

And speech to text for subtitle generation in any language is also something that brings a huge quality of life improvement to millions of users or potential users, ditto for text to speech in any language.

These aren't just useless things that could have been skipped, they're actually enabling people to make money easier. Not to mention, these aren't computationally expensive features that are "bogging down" VEGAS in any way. They should have no noticeable effect on its performance.

As for "social features", let's keep in mind some of these things are game changers for some of us.

For, "some" yes, and this doesn't have to be either/or, but when people cannot get simple playback on the timeline that meets "BASIC" requirements, and this has been an ONGOING concern for DECADES, and is NEVER addressed, well everything else is popcorn and gummy bears to the movie we never get to see.

@fr0sty Are you honestly suggesting that third party library/stock footage assests are a "game changer?" I mean, there are a hundred sources. This is what we mean when we say FIX THE THING before adding BELLS AND WHISTLES.

And IF YOU ARE AS INTERESTED as you say, (in forward movement towards playablity) why did you not consider and comment of FREEZE FUNCTIONALITY?

Thanks for clarification on "insider" idea. Of course I cannot/don't care to know the extent of that relationship, and if you would ACTUALLY sit in on strategy sessions - or are just told the general arc of the plan later.... YOU KNOW more that WE DO, that is the point, which is a good thing, at least they are working with a flesh and blood end user. But THE LADY HAS A POINT, DOES SHE NOT?

These aren't just useless things that could have been skipped, they're actually enabling people to make money easier. Not to mention, these aren't computationally expensive features that are "bogging down" VEGAS in any way. They should have no noticeable effect on its performance.

@fr0sty I know that your take/ my take both and, at times, bend toward the rhertorical - employ sort of 'exageration" when making our points, but for those taking everything lieterally: it is not that some of these features are deemed "useless" by some who just don't get their appeal. It all goes back to the heirarchy of priorities being skewed. And though you could be correct as to the computational, per machine "hit," (beyond my paygrade) there is a development/man-hours/forward movement resource HIT that we are concerned with.

SO4 Magix decoder killed this product, released in VP15, fully implemented in VP16. Subpar performance with both AVC and HEVC, but HEVC and HEVC 10bit it's real achilles heel and the GPU related crashing . When some internet historian looks back on this product 'Whatever happened to Vegas Pro?" do you think the blame will fall on management introducing this GPU decoder in the first place, and after seeing the problems persisting with it?

Before people become internally enraged with what I said, what if another company bought this product, understood the limitations of the current product (VP13) release the VP14 filler product as Magix did but instead of plugging in a GPU decoder for VP15 they used that time to do the engine overhaul necessary to make GPU decoding efficient and not cause crashes, Imagine how different things would be today?

You can go back in time in this forum see the decline of the userbase. It's really unfortunate and didn't have to be this way. Seeing upgrades for $75 or commonly $99 I find conerning, as it likely signals a reduction in demand. With less income even less likelihood of seeing the engine overhaul. I've been wrong before though 😁

Let me play "devil's advocate" here, at least for a quick minute.

The way I look at this sort of issue is that when a person wants to delve into the "bleeding edge" of technology, be willing to pay the price.

Now for me, my expectation would be if I purchased a 3090 card, I'd want to see MARKED improvement with the video I deal with which is 1080p for the most part. I'm looking towards an upgrade, and the 3090 and 3090ti of course come up as real problem solvers, normally speaking, but I'm just curious as to how many on this site are regularly turning out 8K production. I love the idea, btw, but where are we at with that as a "new standard." School me here, I'm definitely not the expert.

As many already know: (but bears repeating) 8k is SIXTEEN TIMES the number of pixels as is 1080, and 4 times the number of pixels of 4k.

Perhaps the NEXT LEVEL card is called for, beyond the 3090 territory IMHO. (Ti version?) I have rethought this a bit, I don't really see this, anymore, as primarily a VEGAS problem, though that is what I suggested earlier. I mean, fps playback speed is my biggest gripe (shared by many) - but again, go to the bleeding edge and be willing to really GO THERE.

I read through a couple of the threads concerning this problem, and I did not see PROXIES come up as any sort of solution. I also missed seeing any reference to the S04 Defeat in Internal Preferences. I mean, as I said elsewhere: Don't let me be too obvious, but perhaps (or very probably) I missed something.

Oh, the drama... 👑

I know that your take/ my take both and, at times, bend toward the rhertorical - employ sort of 'exageration" when making our points, but for those taking everything "lieterally": it is not that some of these features are deemed "useless" by some who just don't get their appeal.

Love the equivocation! Yes, hyperbole is untruth.

instead of plugging in a GPU decoder for VP15 they used that time to do the engine overhaul necessary to make GPU decoding efficient and not cause crashes, Imagine how different things would be today?

It's an interesting what-if.

Looking at Google Trends searches, the bleed of users started well before the Magix hand-off. The software was neglected towards the end of the Sony run. (I was in the Vegas Movie Studio world at that time and only joined Vegas Pro with 12.) At that time I saw Vegas and Premiere as the consumer-level software market leaders (aware of Avid but it didn't seem suited for my needs). Ironically, Premiere wouldn't run stably on my computer so the choice was easy- Vegas.

Without active development Vegas ended up behind by the time of VP 14- you had no native LUT support (!), color grading was through archaic Fx, no HDR support, limited support for increasingly popular smartphone video types, no high framerate video support, no HEVC support, no GPU encoding, few Fx powered by the GPU, no motion tracking, etc.

If you were the manager of the small post-Magix Vegas team, which would be easier to explain to current and prospective users- all of these features, or a new graphics rendering engine? I am skeptical that users would understand the significance of such an engine to justify throwing all engineering resources at it, as it presumably ties the entire program together with massive implications for the code base. These other features are frankly not optional either- no native LUT support in the era of YouTube?

That said, personally I think it was a mistake to release the decoder as is with VP 15- it should have been touted as a beta feature that was opt-in so users could opt for GPU decoding and get those performance boosts at the tradeoff that it didn't yet work with many file types and had stability problems. Perhaps they didn't realize the extent of issues with it initially.

Vegas is a program that needs continued development of its core to remain relevant. I hope that fundamental deep improvements can be made to the program now that it's reasonably caught-up in terms of features, and has moved to a continuous delivery model. Hopefully the influx of users with HumbleBundle (think I counted 40,000 with the last VP 16 promotion) and the much more reasonable upgrade pricing and monthly payment options helps keep a stable revenue base and reduces piracy. Vegas was too expensive for what it was before (who can pay $250 for annual upgrades? <$100 is a lot easier to justify). I wish payment for upgrades gave you a rolling 12 months of support rather than this annual cycle as the software goes down in value to the user as you get closer to the release date of the next version and that improperly suggests such a price is the real "sale price" of Vegas rather than the depreciated price of software nearing the end of its annual cycle.

And IF YOU ARE AS INTERESTED as you say, (in forward movement towards playablity) why did you not consider and comment of FREEZE FUNCTIONALITY?

If you were the one funding all of this, you'd know about how the market responds and would be well aware that releasing a new version with nothing but "we made it run faster" won't sell, regardless of how much we enthusiasts may want that... not to mention, in addition to freeze functionality not being financially viable, it would still take years for all the changes that need to be made under the hood to be completed, and they have to keep those paychecks flowing during that time, or the company goes belly up trying to keep a (very) vocal minority of users happy. VEGAS works just fine as it is, I've been running by business off of it exclusively for 20 years.

One of our great Czech thinkers and inventors, Jara Cimrman, said... We can discuss it, we can disagree with it, but that's the only thing that can be done about it.

In other words....Vegas team has some kind of dream plan for rebuilding and is being guided by it. If the engine replacement is planned for, for example, 2050, we will not do anything about it.

in addition to freeze functionality not being financially viable, it would still take years for all the changes that need to be made under the hood to be completed,

Hello Frosty! You don't seem to be getting my gist: Freeze the individual event, as per necessary to speed playback. It can't be that big a deal. It's a mini render that is reversable to that event. How hard is that? It's less complex than "nested projects" but similar in the idea of simplifying the number tasks playback requires in real time. HOS might do that already, (save render as take) just make it a quick selection routine and add a hot button, Freeze and unfreeze.
"Freeze funtionality" would be a short term fix, added to things like "proxies" - to achieve less laggy playback ---- while the "re-writing" of the code (should it be deemed "justifyable") could happen at a more "regular" (as things are measured) pace.
 

company goes belly up trying to keep a (very) vocal minority of users happy. VEGAS works just fine as it is, I've been running by business off of it exclusively for 20 years.

Great, well, it works fine, thanks for reminding me, I guess I missed that memo.. no need for a Forum......we can all go home.....don't forget to turn off the lights!!

 

A small addition. The team knows very well what troubles us the most.

Until he fixes it, we have four options..

1. Let's use a proxy, which is in the same poor condition.

2. Let's study 1000 page manuals , how to make a simple Transition in adobe and resolve.

3. Let's open our hearts and go out into nature with a smile.

4. If we do not accept any of the above options, then change temporary employment.

What were you doing around the time Sony Vegas was officially shut down? Let's be happy that we can still discuss his future.

Oh, the drama... 👑

I know that your take/ my take both and, at times, bend toward the rhertorical - employ sort of 'exageration" when making our points, but for those taking everything "lieterally": it is not that some of these features are deemed "useless" by some who just don't get their appeal.

Love the equivocation! Yes, hyperbole is untruth.

NO, a sarcastic or facetious remark is not "untruth." Obvious exageration is simply a rhetorical device - a "poetic license" if you will. 'Gee, mom, nobody likes me.' (Said to the mother that likes him). In such cases, the audience is ASSUMED to "get" that.

 

That said, personally I think it was a mistake to release the decoder as is with VP 15- it should have been touted as a beta feature that was opt-in so users could opt for GPU decoding and get those performance boosts at the tradeoff that it didn't yet work with many file types and had stability problems. Perhaps they didn't realize the extent of issues with it initially.

@RogerS Good points, quoted and unquoted, default decoder for AVC being SO4 without GPU decoding or Legacy AVC because it forces SO4 where required. I normally use legacy because it's is a little better CPU wise. Like MKV, turning on GPU decoding could be known as experimental or beta. Users suitable warned.

As many already know: (but bears repeating) 8k is SIXTEEN TIMES the number of pixels as is 1080, and 4 times the number of pixels of 4k.

Perhaps the NEXT LEVEL card is called for, beyond the 3090 territory IMHO. (Ti version?) I have rethought this a bit, I don't really see this, anymore, as primarily a VEGAS problem, though that is what I suggested earlier. I mean, fps playback speed is my biggest gripe (shared by many) - but again, go to the bleeding edge and be willing to really GO THERE.

@Seb-o It's not a GPU processing problem (lack of GPU power) I demonstrate this here, by playing back an 8K60fps AV1 with noise reduction and 'contrast pop' turned on. I am playing back on a 4K timeline due to VRAM limitations and also when The 2 clips blend you see playback die, the reason for this is also a lack of VRAM, only 1 cliip is able to be decoded by GPU, the other is being decoded by CPU, and that was never going to work.

A rtx3090 or an rtx3080 with more VRAM would playback these files just fine. That's a limitation of Resolve, it chews up VRAM amounts that many people don't have on their GPU's (currently). We do need HEVC 422 decode on all new GPU's though, I hope that happens, they're just around the corner.

Perhaps if we all viewed this forum as more of a technical learning venue, and less of a social media bandwagon, the distinction between objective truth and sandlot boasting might become clearer, "lieterally." But then, maybe not...

1. This is a community – not a competition

Perhaps if we all viewed this forum as more of a technical learning venue, and less of a social media bandwagon, the distinction between objective truth and sandlot boasting might become clearer, "lieterally." But then, maybe not...

1. This is a community – not a competition

People have different communication styles, Not a crime, last time I checked.

 

@Seb-o It's not a GPU processing problem (lack of GPU power) I demonstrate this here, by playing back an 8K60fps AV1 with noise reduction and 'contrast pop' turned on. I am playing back on a 4K timeline due to VRAM limitations and also when The 2 clips blend you see playback die, the reason for this is also a lack of VRAM, only 1 cliip is able to be decoded by GPU, the other is being decoded by CPU, and that was never going to work.

A rtx3090 or an rtx3080 with more VRAM would playback these files just fine. That's a limitation of Resolve, it chews up VRAM amounts that many people don't have on their GPU's (currently). We do need HEVC 422 decode on all new GPU's though, I hope that happens, they're just around the corner.

Thanks for the breakdown. I think you get my point, the "next level" card would be the one suited towards that task, and if you say the VRAM is the difference maker, I'd certainly buy that, it would seem to be quite correct.

The playback max fps formula on an NLE timeline seems to be a coalition of the GPU, VRAM, CPU and Computer RAM, also the propensity of the software, CODECs, and FX demands, the list tends to grow. . IOW, still a bit of alchemy in getting the correct mix. Motherboard, power supply, cooling....on and on we go!

In the case of the OP, your suggestion would be??? Aren't the card desigations FIXED as far as - for example, the 3090 card having a standard amount of VRAM, and if you'd want more, you go to the next number level card, or to the Ti or to the TITAN, so forth? Can VRAM be added? I wouldn't think so.

 

Perhaps if we all viewed this forum as more of a technical learning venue, and less of a social media bandwagon, the distinction between objective truth and sandlot boasting might become clearer, "lieterally." But then, maybe not...

1. This is a community – not a competition

Most similar forums are a MIX of, as you suggest, learning, via tips and suggestions, but also a feedback device where the company and the end user can connect, albeit sometimes indirectly. That inevitably leads conversations into some conjecture and offering up of opinion, especially concerning where the company wishes to go vs. where customers (who'd have a range of opinions on that) would wish, and some sort of win/win outcome is sought. if it is a healthy relationship, the company will seek the input of the user base. I just received a questionaire towards this same end from Magix/Vegas, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN TWENTY YEARS now. (Tremendous sign, I'd say) so, it's not as if this sort of exchange has no usefulness beyond the aforementioned technical knowledge exchange, even if "flights of fancy" are inevitably part of that mix. This is all sort of "understood." One person's conjecture is another's flight of fancy, but is that ultimately harmful?

Great, well, it works fine, thanks for reminding me, I guess I missed that memo.. no need for a Forum......we can all go home.....don't forget to turn off the lights!!

It works well enough to keep my lights on and fridge stocked. That's all that is vital for me. I can get my projects out the door. Would you say Resolve doesn't work fine? It still has a forum... So does premiere, final cut, AVID, etc... and in all of those forums are dozens of posts of people experiencing trouble with their software. VEGAS is less stable than those apps in a lot of cases, i'm not trying to deny that, but I'm also not trying to exaggerate it like many do.

Kloverton, I upgraded from dual Radeon VII's to a 3090, and have noticed a pretty big performance jump from it when editing, especially with effects like motion tracking, noise reduction, etc. You won't get any improvement on encoding or decoding because the 3090 uses the same encoder/decoder chips as the older Nvidia cards, but for timeline acceleration of effects, there is a difference. I also edit 10 bit 4k video exclusively, though I do have to use proxies.

If you were the one funding all of this, you'd know about how the market responds and would be well aware that releasing a new version with nothing but "we made it run faster" won't sell,

Are you kidding, if that ever REALLY happened with significant playback zip, I'd take three tomorrow and I'm not the only one, by a long shot.