VP18 - Notes on the 8 bit full level option

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adis-a3097 wrote on 8/4/2020, 1:55 PM

Nope.

But, just in case, I'd render 2-3 sec. region first, to see if everything's as it should. :)

Thanks! I will test this.


No problem, jost! :)

Marco. wrote on 8/4/2020, 2:35 PM

@joost-berk

If you want to be sure your result will equal "the old way", better set the pixel format to "8 bit legacy (video level)".

David Johns wrote on 8/4/2020, 4:04 PM

Anyone who doesn't like this can revert to 8-bit video levels and enjoy the standard workarounds we came to know and love.

Until Magix remove the legacy 8-bit mode, which Gary said in his livestream was likely to happen in the future. That'll be a pest when it comes to me opening archive projects :-(

Also, a query; I tried this new full 8-bit mode and it messed up (as expected) a video file with no metadata but when I went to Project Media and tried to adjust the info, the levels box was greyed out so I couldn't change it. Am I being stupid?

Marco. wrote on 8/4/2020, 6:23 PM

There are at least two strong reasons not to drop the legacy 8 bit mode. One is to keep control over your input and output levels. Another one is to avoid any unnecessary banding. That's always been advantages of Vegas Pro over many other NLEs.

Yellandkeil wrote on 8/4/2020, 7:37 PM

@Marco. do you remember the discussion about the "normal" ACESpace output for Rec709?

I start this project in vp18:

and edit as usual:

I render it with the space and level setting as below:

and get the perfect Rec709 data (check in vp17), isn't it wonderful?

joost-berk wrote on 8/5/2020, 8:35 AM

Well, your shooting levels are still the wild card. As always, scopes are your best friend. The rest is, well....


@Musicvid That is not completely true. When I shot material on Sony PMW-350 or PMW-500 I am pretty shure it shoots from 0 to 100% video levels, because i'll set this in the menu's. And these used to line up verry accurately in the Vegas scope windows as 0 to 100% limited.

Yesterday when I was testing with these MXF files in the new full scale 8-bit mode, Vegas did not detect this. The levels where around -10 to +110%. Turning Vegas in to 8-bit legacy mode, shows the correct levels.

I still need to test on my new work flow for this. But the new feature that can detect the right levels or color spaces doesn't work for MXF - XAVC or HD422/420 files.

Vegas Pro user since version 1.2

OS: Windows 10 Pro (Latest version)

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3800X

RAM: 32GB DDR4 3200MHz

GPU: Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Super 8GB GDDR (Latest Studio Driver)

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Marco. wrote on 8/5/2020, 8:46 AM

@joost-berk

"Yesterday when I was testing with these MXF files in the new full scale 8-bit mode, Vegas did not detect this. The levels where around -10 to +110%. Turning Vegas in to 8-bit legacy mode, shows the correct levels."

This is a false conclusion. If in the new 8 bit full level mode your levels now appears as -10 to 110 % then Vegas Pro detected the source levels pretty fine.

Remember: The very base goal of this new mode is to have the internal preview feeded with the levels it needs for a proper display. Thus Vegas Pro now (in that new mode) tries to get all input levels conform to computer levels. You feeded Vegas Pro with video levels, so the levels were transformed to computer levels. Exactly what this mode is meant to do.

So when you say in legacy mode Vegas Pro shows the correct levels, this is correct if you mean the untouched source levels are the correct ones. But the new mode is not made not to touch your source levels as untouched they would not be correct to be feeded to the internal preview.

Exactly the confusion I expected to arise. :D

joost-berk wrote on 8/5/2020, 9:00 AM

@Marco. ahhhh so I start to get a sense of that! I will continue to adapt to this new workflow. It feels like my fundamentals are changed. Feels like I am walking on slippery ice! :-) I'll get used to it.

Vegas Pro user since version 1.2

OS: Windows 10 Pro (Latest version)

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3800X

RAM: 32GB DDR4 3200MHz

GPU: Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Super 8GB GDDR (Latest Studio Driver)

Monitoring: Black Magic Design DeckLink SDI 4K (or Nvidia HDMI for 4K HDR)

Audio: M-Audio M-Track Eight ASIO

Controller: Behringer X-Touch

fr0sty wrote on 8/5/2020, 9:09 AM

Another thing worth mentioning (sorry if it has already been) is currently, proxies do not render at the correct levels, so even in the new mode, they won't appear correctly on the preview screen. Until a patch can fix this, if you want to see your levels properly, just disable the proxy by setting preview quality to "good" or "best", do your coloring, and then when editing, switch it back to "preview" or "draft" to re-enable the proxies and edit.

set wrote on 8/5/2020, 9:24 AM

also:

when working in full range, Waveform setting 'Studio RGB' should be turned off.

Musicvid wrote on 8/5/2020, 9:39 AM

@Marco.

+2011

@joost-berk

At the risk of sounding like a parrot in the room, your observation is correct, your levels are "correct" (for full range), the Vegas response is correct, and unfortunately your attribution is not. Your mistake is "expected" because Marco and I have seen it a thousand times. Don't feel bad, you're a smart guy, and you'll get it.

It helps to be a student of Spock, whose mentor was Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, if you've ever heard of him:

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." --Arthur Conan Doyle

Also called rule-out theory, It is helpful in analyzing situations in which there are multiple dependent variables.

 

 

joost-berk wrote on 8/5/2020, 1:46 PM

@Musicvid I now understand the new way of previewing in 8 bit!

Wat @set sayed here:

also:

when working in full range, Waveform setting 'Studio RGB' should be turned off.

rounded everything up for me! By changing the way my scopes work did me realize that everything still is the same. I don't need to change anything for my XDCAM workflow. Thanks all for explaining!

Vegas Pro user since version 1.2

OS: Windows 10 Pro (Latest version)

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3800X

RAM: 32GB DDR4 3200MHz

GPU: Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Super 8GB GDDR (Latest Studio Driver)

Monitoring: Black Magic Design DeckLink SDI 4K (or Nvidia HDMI for 4K HDR)

Audio: M-Audio M-Track Eight ASIO

Controller: Behringer X-Touch

Yellandkeil wrote on 8/5/2020, 1:48 PM

As an alternative, the vegas team can consider making a blacklist in the "Project Media" pool to not convert certain file types.

This also avoids the conflict between proxy and original by rendering.

 

Marco. wrote on 8/5/2020, 1:53 PM

"By changing the way my scopes work did me realize that everything still is the same."

Though that's a bit misleading. The current levels are not the one you then see in the waveform but computer levels. Only if you render to limited levels they will be transformed back to video levels again.
So I always leave that waveform option checked.

Of course it wouldn't matter if you're aware what the setting does.
If "Studio RGB" is checked, 0 % equals RGB 16 and 100 % equals RGB 235.
If "Studio RGB" is unchecked, 0 % equals RGB 0 and 100 % equals RGB 255.

joost-berk wrote on 8/5/2020, 2:14 PM

@Marco. Yes, good point there. But since the RGB parade can now show a mixed RGB signal and it's range shows 0-255, that gives me a good view. If the waveform gives me a signal from 0 to 100% (like it was in the old version) it gives me a view that I can relate to as is shown in the camera.

Vegas Pro user since version 1.2

OS: Windows 10 Pro (Latest version)

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3800X

RAM: 32GB DDR4 3200MHz

GPU: Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Super 8GB GDDR (Latest Studio Driver)

Monitoring: Black Magic Design DeckLink SDI 4K (or Nvidia HDMI for 4K HDR)

Audio: M-Audio M-Track Eight ASIO

Controller: Behringer X-Touch

Musicvid wrote on 8/5/2020, 2:18 PM

I've recommended using the histo to check preview levels for the past decade because of that basic gotcha. If one wasn't around in the waveform / analog voltage days (and if joost-berk's avatar is any indication, he wasn't), IRE is difficult to wrap your brain around. Just because it's second nature to many of my generation, doesn't mean we should presume it is for the young'uns.

Still, my original point remains. All the presets in the world presume designated levels endpoints. What if you didn't actually shoot 0-255, even if your camera can and does in other situations? Does it need to be corrected, or is it high-key, low-key, flat, contrasty, or backlit? Even if we had levels pre-scanning, as photographic printers do, that would still not be enough. The perceptual (human) model is still needed.

I developed this simple project, under the guidance of @Marco. and @john_dennis, that will eliminate all of the guesswork and free up creativity within the prevailing structure, but sofar there's been little interest in learning to use it. I wish there was more investment in education, and less in having an "Easy Button," but that's been a tough sell.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/tutorials/new-video-levels-tool-for-movie-studio-platinum-and-vegas-pro--121046/

 

set wrote on 8/5/2020, 4:42 PM

 

This also avoids the conflict between proxy and original by rendering.

Alternatively, you can do 'manual proxy' for now while waiting for update: render it to your proxy of choice, and keep it as Limited Range (you can choose your color range render whether to Full Range or Limited Range in the customize template render settings)

Then, rename the file to match your original media, rename the extension adding .sfvp0. By doing this way, you can have proper view if you have a Full Range media. (as my Xiaomi Yi Action Cam that is in my above screenshot).

Limited Range media is not going to be affected. Also, Proxy only affect while doing previewing, not in full render.

cadudesun wrote on 8/5/2020, 7:42 PM

Initially, the new "8-bit (full range)" functionality sounded the best improvement in Vegas 18 for my workflow.

But after reading this thread I'm realizing the "8-bit (full range)" isn't properly implemented yet.

Instead of adopting a couple of workarounds to deal with the new "8-bit (full range)" while waiting for an update, I prefer to stick to the "one" workaround that has been working for me ever:

"Preview levels for simulating the signal levels of the output device in the preview window":

https://www.semw-software.com/en/extensions/

RogerS wrote on 8/5/2020, 9:59 PM

Initially, the new "8-bit (full range)" functionality sounded the best improvement in Vegas 18 for my workflow.

But after reading this thread I'm realizing the "8-bit (full range)" isn't properly implemented yet.

Instead of adopting a couple of workarounds to deal with the new "8-bit (full range)" while waiting for an update, I prefer to stick to the "one" workaround that has been working for me ever:

"Preview levels for simulating the signal levels of the output device in the preview window":

https://www.semw-software.com/en/extensions/

Did you try it or just read this thread? If you're not using proxies it's fully implemented. I was using the SEMW workflow before and now find it unnecessary.

My studio footage (Sony AVC) is automatically made to match computer levels, which means I can intercut with still images and old Canon Rebel footage (full) without manual intervention. If I have odd files (Sony Cine 1 which is 16-255), I can manually change them to full levels and then just bring in the black point (levels Fx of computer to video with the whites adjustment zeroed out).

Of course if you prefer your way of working Vegas lets you continue doing that. I'm doing the same on older projects that are already set up for video levels.

john_dennis wrote on 8/5/2020, 11:00 PM

Since my current camera shoots nominally 16-255, I don’t think the Vegas team has done me any favors, so far. I’m a few days into Vegas 18 thirty-day trial. From my work life, I’ve learned to add sequence numbers to my “Last and Final” posts.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/vegas-pro-levels-last-and-final-1--120319/

set wrote on 8/5/2020, 11:25 PM

errr... ooops... since RogerS mentioned similar thing... I remove my reply... ok - but anyway.... I retype:

Doing camcorder's clip with 16-255 range, can be done by setting the Color Range of that source clip as FULL range, and then do level or grading to balance those black level and white level.

It's all depends on the source, and, of course, the way of workflow that most comfortable for you.

I personally now feel more comfortable with 8bit full range, with scope waveform ranged 0-100% as 0-255 (uncheck Studio RGB), and common clip from my dji osmo pocket ranged 16-235 limited range fit automatically.

But of course other have different opinion to this.

As for 16-255 camcorders? so far depends on the content.

 

Rendering option: for uploading to Youtube / FB / IGTV via desktop, then I can choose Full Range option.

But if my target is IG feed - which requires to be posted via my smartphone, I still need to render as Limited Range.

Other case? I need to see one by one... but for safe - it's limited range.

AVsupport wrote on 8/6/2020, 12:32 AM

when opening a project previously created in a version <VP18 check if you're not running this in 'legacy' mode.. I think this happened to me, but I need someone to confirm this.

Ps, is there an easy way to check if your source material is full range (from the metadata) ?

Last changed by AVsupport on 8/6/2020, 12:34 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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john_dennis wrote on 8/6/2020, 2:20 AM

@AVsupport

"... is there an easy way to check if your source material is full range (from the metadata)?"

From my brief efforts with 18, it appears to me that, if you switch the Pixel Format setting in Project Properties between 8-bit (full range) and Legacy 8-bit (video levels) and the Videoscopes don't change, then the source clip is full range no matter what the metadata says. I'd be interested to know what others think about this test.

Be sure the Videoscopes are updating.

john_dennis wrote on 8/6/2020, 2:28 AM

@set

"Doing camcorder's clip with 16-255 range, can be done by setting the Color Range of that source clip as FULL range, and then do level or grading to balance those black level and white level."

That works, but right now I'm counting key strokes and mouse clicks to see if I saved anything except that I don't have to worry about levels when I render the output. Either way, it's a paradigm shift for me.