Thanks for your helpful response. I do understand the difference between a codec and a resolution, but for some reason I thought XAVC-S was only used for 4K. It is interesting that it can also be used for 2K, and your comment that "there is a world of difference there in clarity" is most intriguing.

I wonder where the improved clarity comes from. As you note, the resolution is the same. So my first guess would be the reduced amount of compression yields a better set of pixels/frame, albeit the same number of pixels/frame.

Of course the tradeoff for this is the increased space required. I'm really not too concerned about this however, and if what you say is true in general I can see myself switching to the new codec.

Of course the actual proof is in the pudding so to speak, and right now I have no way to invoke the XAVC-S codec since my GX7 does not support it. The AX33 is at least a month away, so I have time to do more investigation.

Editing AVCHD is not a problem for me since I have a pretty robust system. It's the final rendering that is slow & tedious, apparently because Sony's BluRay rendering codecs are old and do not take advantage of the current generation of GPUs. I'm curious about what rendering XAVC-S media would be like, and whether or not VMS can accept that format natively or would require a pre-render.

The difference is interlaced vs. progressive and the bit rate. There is probably a bit to do with the amount of compression too.

An interesting comparison would be AVCHD at 1920x1080/60p at the max. bit rate and compare that to XAVC S to give you the current high def comparison.

I can say that for awhile I was recording at 1440x1080/60i AVCHD and outputting as an SD mpg DVD.Those DVDs looked nicer than those containing DV footage. Can't say for sure exactly what the reason was.

There are a very few 4K cameras in the under $2K range. Fewer in the under $1K range, but I got one for Christmas. One of the first, a near $2K model is the Sony AX100. I understand that it shoots 4K with the Sony XAVC-S built in and comes with a copy of Movie Studio Platinum. For editing. In other words, Sony tuned version 13 to go with their camera. At CES, Sony introduced a $1K 4K camcorder and a 4K action camera.

Mine is one of three Panasonic cameras that shoot 4K. None are traditional camcorders. The menus say nothing about XAVC-S. Instead is is MP4 with the 33840x2160. The bit rate on mine is about 3 times than for AVCHD.

There are two theories. One is we won't be able to stand it if we buy a 4K TV and can't shoot our videos in 4K to match. The other is more interesting to me. The 4K files make for more editing opportunities with zooming, cropping, color and exposure adjustment. The 1920x1080 output is supposed to be improved. Even YouTubes and Vimeos seem improved.

I bought Movie Studio to take advantage of the 4K features and am a few weeks into learning it. To my surprise, my other NLE, which is the cheap one from Adobe, works fine with 4K and has the Sony XVAC-S output rendering presets.

Although Sony has put a brand on it's version of XVAC like they did with AVCHD. Panasonic and others are not appearing to put a brand on it yet.

It is all very confusing, but so far, my footage appears better. The initial files are so big, that the computer is taking a little longer to do things.

One interesting note for Movie Studio users is that if you bring in 4K footage it automatically produces "proxies" and you can't stop it. With AVCHD, it is an option to use "proxies".

Bill

Aha!
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One interesting note for Movie Studio users is that if you bring in 4K footage it automatically produces "proxies" and you can't stop it. With AVCHD, it is an option to use "proxies".
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So VMS actually CANNOT handle 4K input directly. That is a disappointment for sure. I've never used a proxy file with AVCHD input and frankly don't like the idea of having to do both a "pre render" and then a final render as well.

I wonder of other NLE's behave the same way. I've been using VMS for years, but this just might be sufficient justification to switch if there is an NLE that can edit 4K/XAVC-S directly.

I suspect, and hope, that MS13 only uses the proxy files for preview and automatically uses the original AVCHD or 4K on export. This is how many other video editors that use proxies behave and it's no big deal or inconvenience. Unfortunately MS12 works differently as you have to manually alter each clip back to the original HD source.

Perhaps someone with MS13 could kindly confirm.

"if there is an NLE that can edit 4K/XAVC-S directly."

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My "hobby" right now is learning VMS 13 as a "second language" to Premier Elements 13 that I've learned well over several yeas and four versions. It seems impossible to fully understand what is going on "under the hood".

On my computer, the the 4K proxy creation in VMS is quick, simple and efficient. I don't see it as an issue at all. An online friend, who is a prolific videographer, bought the Sony AX100 to shoot 4K travelogues. He takes a small, inexpensive SDD based laptop on his trips for editing and says the proxy process makes it all work smoothly on his under powered "travel computer".

On my i7, 16GB, SSD equipped computer, the Premier Elements process is different. Dropping the first clip to the timeline sets the project to match the clip and no proxies are created. As you add titles, transitions, grading, etc, PrE warns you that preview may get affected. Sections that need "preview rendering" are marked with a yellow bar. If you agree that the preview is less than the best, pressing a key starts a "pre-render" process and the yellow marker goes away.

I've never found specific documentation to verify this. But, my understanding is that all NLEs, including VMS and PrE source the original clips for final output encoding, rendering or whatever you call it. The project file created is the road-map to the source footage. Personal experience with the only two NLE's I've used seems to verify this.

"I suspect, and hope, that MS13 only uses the proxy files for preview and automatically uses the original AVCHD or 4K on export. .....Perhaps someone with MS13 could kindly confirm."

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There is nothing on the screen that shows or confirms that is happening, but it certainly seems to work that way. Proxies are for smooth preview and original footage is used for export encoding.

Thanks for your informative reply. It's becoming clear that the process of editing and rendering 4K video is more complicated than it seems. I've only done 1920x1080 AVCHD with added JPG stills and standard fades between clips, and I have never had any experience with proxy or pre-render files. Frankly that was one of my reasons for choosing VMS as my video editor. (I also like the way it does the Ken Burns effect.)

I travel with a i5 SSD laptop where i do the initial assembly of my final videos. This system works well for preliminary viewing/editing of my final video stream. Even though I do not plan on shooting 4K video (i have no way to show it at 4K resolution) it seems like I would be using the XAVC-S codec when initially recording video. I'm sure I would be annoyed if the initial editing got slowed down by the need to create proxy files. Furthermore, my laptop has a 128GB SSD and I'm wondering if the size of the XAVC-S files and their proxies would become an issue.

Like you I do my final edits on an i7 16GB SSD desktop and, except for final BluRay rendering , I have no problems or complaints. I expect the proxy file issue would be a non-issue on this system, but like you I would like to know just how VMS 13 handles the whole process. For instance, if VMS does create proxy files, is there a way to force them to be placed on a specific disk? Or even perhaps a RamDisk?

About once a year I take a look at VMS's competing NLE's just to see what they are up to. Looks like I should start this process again since 4K and XAVC-S seem to bring a lot of new stuff to the table.

The MSP 13 online Help seems to have only this topic on Creating proxy files for high-definition editing.

^"It's becoming clear that the process of editing and rendering 4K video is more complicated than it seems. "

On the contrary. Compared to AVCHD when it was new, this is like falling off the log. Files are bigger, but memory is cheaper than ever.

^"About once a year I take a look at VMS's competing NLE's just to see what they are up to"

Which NLE's are do you look and what are you looking for?

Bill

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Which NLE's are do you look and what are you looking for?
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I usually check out PowerDIrector, Magix Pro, the GrassValley product (sorry, forgot the name) and perhaps one or 2 others.

So far (as of last year or so) I've not found a single one who's interface I like as much as Vegas.

What I look for are several things (not in any particular order):

1. Ability to accept and process HD video directly
2. Ease of doing clip transitions & trims
3. Ease of doing pan/crop operations
4. Availability of 5.1 audio output
5. Ability to make full-function BluRay disks with interactive menus
6. FInal BluRay output rendering speed
7. Overall software stability

I am not interested (yet) in 3D or 4K. But that may change over time.

Hi Birk

"One interesting note for Movie Studio users is that if you bring in 4K footage it automatically produces "proxies" and you can't stop it."

Yes you can STOP the creation of Video Proxies for 4K video, however there is very good reason why Sony has set this as a default. Once you start adding Video Fx and multiple layers to your project, expecting your CPU to be able to process 4K video in real time with added FX, is going to be near impossible for current computers.

Go to Options - Preferences - Video tab
Un-check "Automatically create video proxies for Ultra HD media"

Setting the Preview Window correctly, controls whether you are viewing Proxy versions or Original HD/4K versions. You must set Preview Window to Draft or Preview quality to play Proxy versions while editing. Changing Preview to Best or Good, will play/show original HD versions.

When it comes time for rendering/making movie, Movie Studio intelligently renders with the original source videos and does NOT use video proxies.

Regards
Derek.

Thanks Dr Zen. Great to see you contributing here as well.

Thank you Derek!

As I posted earlier, I am VERY new to VMS, starting with version 13.

It is interesting that mine installed with the default set to automatically create the proxies and the preview quality set to Best with a subset of "Auto".

It is nice to know I can control it.

Bill

Excellent info about the proxy files in VMS13 - thanks. Since I have never used 4K input I never bothered to look for any info on that. Interesting that Sony uses the term "Ultra HD" - I"ve not seen that before anywhere.

There is still the question/issue of just where the proxy files are located - and can this be controlled? I learned a while ago that stabilized video files are kept in the <name>.vf project files saved by VMS13. This is not where I'd like to keep these things, but there is no choice. I wonder if the proxy files are in there somewhere too. And if they ever get deleted.

The following is quoted from the MSP 13 Help link in a previous post of mine.
"Movie Studio Platinum creates video proxy files (.sfvp0) alongside the original files in Windows Explorer. You will not see these files in the Project Media window or Movie Studio Platinum Explorer."

I have been reading these posts and answers with some interest and trepidation. I have for years been making wild life video on SD camcorders creating DVD discs for some of the friends who have accompanied us. Now I am using a camcorder which captures in HD video.

DVDs have been brilliant and universal but since the advent of wide screen this has been less satisfactory and even more so with the advent of HD. DVDs are looking dated but they are still there for some time to come so I have been rendering HD output to SD to fit on DVD. The result is fairly abysmal in terms of definition and looks worse than the SD video from years ago.

I am saving my final version as MP4 on a hard drive which is good and it is good on a USB stick or SD card but what about my friends. Would you suggest I buy them a hard drive or dispatch it on a USB stick or a memory card while they catch up on technology.

Perhaps there is a way of getting my efforts on a DVD easily without losing too much quality. This appears to be best at the moment.

Meanwhile I am editing about 10 hours of original video down to about 2 hours and hoping to get it on a DVD as usual.

I am muscling in on this post as I thought one of you might have a ones sentence answer. Please don't spend a lot of time on answering.