1. Further Updates? 2. Resolution & Frame Rate Questions

B3burner wrote on 4/16/2020, 2:38 AM

Software: Vegas Movie Studio 14 (Platinum)

Hardware: OS-- Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit, Service Pack #1

CPU: AMD FX- 8120 8-core Processor 3.40ghz

Motherboard: BioStar A880GZ AM3+, 125 Watt Max TDP MOBO

RAM: Corsair Vengeance 8 GB 1600

GPU: AMD XFX R7870 2GB GDDR5

PSU: Corsair 600CS (600 watt)

----

1. My first question is were there any updates I missed for version 14, beyond build #148? The reason I ask is that I'm having some difficulty with the Project Properties Video tab. According to the Platinum Help page, under "Deinterlace method", it says I'm supposed to have 4 choices: "None", "Blend Fields", "Interpolate", and "Smart Adaptive (GPU only)". But on my screen, I only have the first 3 and the "Smart Adaptive" choice is missing. Is this because I missed an update along the way? Or does it have some sort of GPU dependency that I'm not understanding? See my GPU specs above-- do AMD's not work with "Smart Adaptive"?

2. I'm having some issues with setting my Resolution and Frame Rates. First off... before I get started, when the entire resolution reads... for example... 1280 x 720 x 32... what does the "32" mean? I know 1280 is width, 720 is height (and the resolution number); but I've never understood what the 3rd number is. Does it ever change, or is it always 32?

Now to the question: I have an iPhone 11, and I downloaded a GPS video camera app that records video with HUD information on the screen-- (speed, direction, miles traveled, latitude/longitude, etc)-- which I'm testing out for use as a dash-cam in my car. It says the app shoots at 720p, so I was expecting a 16:9 aspect-- so 1280 x 720.

However, because my new iPhone 11 has a native resolution of 1792 x 828 (a multiplier of 2.164, instead of the 1.778 I'm used to with 16:9/ 1280x720)-- the car app shot the video at 1558 x 720 (to preserve the 720p (height) at 2.164). A very odd combination of numbers I've never seen before. What's more I think it was supposed to yield a frame rate of 30.000 fps, but when I inputted it into the editor, I got a rather odd frame rate of 31.579 fps.

While I thought it weird, I didn't question it. I just confirmed that those numbers were loaded as they read into the "Project Properties" box, to insure they would input in the render as such. When I was done with my project in the edit (.vf) stage, and was ready to render it ("Make Movie")... I chose .mp4-- for general internet videos-- and hit "next" without going into the "Advanced" section to choose anything further.

As soon as I hit next, and it started rendering, I looked at the resolution and frame rate data, and much to my surprise, it had converted my 1558 x 720, 31.579 fps input, to a... 1280 x 720, 15.789 fps output!

So my questions are:

A. Why did it do this, even though I specified the exact numbers I wanted in the properties?

B. Is there a way to force 1558 x 720, 31.579, even if it isn't a standard setup? I thought that's what choosing my own custom template was for! It seems to have ignored my template, from the time I imported it to the editor, to the time I exported it to the render-er.

C. In the past, it's always given me exactly what I've inputted. Are those numbers just too odd for the program to handle?

The real problem with this, is now that the video's frame rate has been cut in half down to 15 from editor-load-in to render-output, the playback of the final .mp4 is kind of jittery, because of the lower frames-- especially for a driving video in a car looking forward at the road, but when I paused the video, each frame was crisp and clear with no blur or "double ghost imaging".

So later, I was able to create a 1280 x 720, 29.970 fps version by rendering it as an .avi, instead of as an .mp4. Given the much larger size of .avi files, this is not a choice I want to go to on a regular basis. And further, here's the problem. The overall flow of the video was smoother without the jittery motion at 15 fps, but now when I paused the video, it would "ghost image" and I'd see two of everything that was in the frame-- road signs, fence posts, telephone polls, etc.

So I have the worst of two choices... one where motion is bad but the paused video looks great, and the other where motion is great but the paused video looks bad. Neither is ideal. I have a feeling if output frames matched input frames, none of this would have been an issue. I'm less concerned that it switched 1558 x 720, to 1280 x 720; but still it's a point of curiosity for me.

How do I make this render in the 31.579 it was imported as, so the frames don't "ghost", nor does the video look too jittery?

Thanks for your time, and sorry in advance for the long post. When I have technical issues that are hard for me to understand, and thus questions that are hard for me to articulate, I tend to write a lot.

-- John O'Flaherty (B3burner)

Comments

KenB wrote on 4/16/2020, 3:15 AM

Can you show the MediaInfo properties of your iPhone video? I suspect you will see it is variable frame rate:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

Ken.

vkmast wrote on 4/16/2020, 3:32 AM

Re the updates, build 148 was the last one for VMSP 14.

Re the "32" (third number), see here.

If you want to trial the later versions, build 142 of VMSP 16 is the last one to work with Windows 7.

B3burner wrote on 4/16/2020, 4:01 AM

Can you show the MediaInfo properties of your iPhone video? I suspect you will see it is variable frame rate:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

Ken.

Hi, Okay here ya' go. I hope all this helps, and that I found the correct information and did it right. Thanks.

BTW... yes indeed you were right. Variable-- as is most things in life. I just wish the render-er didn't have to half the darn thing.

I. MediaInfo:

General
Complete name : C:\Users\John\Documents\Movie Studio 14.0 Platinum Projects\VANU8368.MOV
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : QuickTime
Codec ID : qt 0000.00 (qt )
File size : 2.49 GiB
Duration : 46 min 32 s
Overall bit rate : 7 672 kb/s
Encoded date : UTC 2020-04-01 01:33:37
Tagged date : UTC 2020-04-01 02:20:10
Writing library : Apple QuickTime

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L3.2
Format settings : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=1, N=15
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 46 min 32 s
Bit rate : 7 601 kb/s
Width : 1 558 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 2.2:1
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 30.000 FPS
Minimum frame rate : 15.000 FPS
Maximum frame rate : 31.579 FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.226
Stream size : 2.47 GiB (99%)
Title : Core Media Video
Encoded date : UTC 2020-04-01 01:33:37
Tagged date : UTC 2020-04-01 02:20:10
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709
Codec configuration box : avcC

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC LC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID : mp4a-40-2
Duration : 46 min 32 s
Source duration : 46 min 32 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Nominal bit rate : 64.0 kb/s
Channel(s) : 1 channel
Channel layout : C
Sampling rate : 32.0 kHz
Frame rate : 31.250 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Source stream size : 21.0 MiB (1%)
Title : Core Media Audio
Encoded date : UTC 2020-04-01 01:33:37
Tagged date : UTC 2020-04-01 02:20:10

----------

II. Video File Properties:

General
Name: VANU8368.MOV
Folder: H:\4. iPhone Media\2020-02-12-- Transfer #24-- Feb 12, 2020 to Mar 31, 2020
Type: QuickTime
Size: 2.62 GB (2,678,477,243 bytes)
Created: Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 18:33:37
Modified: Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 18:33:37
Accessed: Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 18:33:37
Attributes: Archive

Streams
Video: 00:46:32.335, 31.579 fps progressive, 1558x720x24, H.264
Audio: 00:46:32.254, 32,000 Hz, 32 Bit (IEEE Float), Mono, AAC

Summary
[GUDE]: {7BB3FE15-954A-4E75-B5E1-45EE98F74990}

ACID information
ACID chunk: no
Stretch chunk: no
Stretch list: no
Stretch info2: no
Beat markers: no
Detected beats: no

Other metadata
Regions/markers: no
Command markers: no

Media manager
Media tags: no

Plug-In
Name: qt7plug.dll
Folder: C:\Program Files\VEGAS\Movie Studio Platinum 14.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\qt7plug
Format: QuickTime 7
Version: Version 14.0 (Build 148)
Company: MAGIX Computer Products Intl. Co.

B3burner wrote on 4/16/2020, 4:01 AM

Re the updates, build 148 was the last one for VMSP 14.

Re the "32" (third number), see here.

If you want to trial the later versions, build 142 of VMSP 16 is the last one to work with Windows 7.

VK Mast, Thank you. I'm glad to put to rest any thoughts that I missed an update along the way.

EricLNZ wrote on 4/16/2020, 6:38 AM

@B3burner - Deinterlace Method "Smart Adaptive" is only available in Vegas Pro. Mention of it in the Movie Studio Help screens is an error.

B3burner wrote on 4/16/2020, 2:53 PM

@B3burner - Deinterlace Method "Smart Adaptive" is only available in Vegas Pro. Mention of it in the Movie Studio Help screens is an error.

EricLNZ, Thank you. Unfortunately the "Tag as Solution" check mark only works for one reply in a thread, and I already gave it to someone else, but I really do appreciate your answering this. Puts my mind at ease that something's not missing from my program. You guys are great at responding quickly, and helping a person out.

B3burner wrote on 4/16/2020, 3:30 PM

Can you show the MediaInfo properties of your iPhone video? I suspect you will see it is variable frame rate:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

Ken.

Ken, so returning to the subject at hand, did you have a chance to look at my Media-Info, and see anything out of the ordinary in either my phone data, or my video file data? I did establish that the frame rate is variable, and that the listed max was the aforementioned 31.579 fps, the normal was 30.000, and the listed min was 15.000. So that's a huge range, but still doesn't answer the question as to why the final render chose the a very arbitrary 15.789 for the .mp4 creation, and why when I first dropped the raw .mov file into the editor, it chose the highest 31.579 value (quite arbitrarily I think). I would have thought it would have tried to pick the default norm of 30.000 first. The only relation I see, is that 15.7895 is exactly half of 31.579, but any rational explanation of those numbers beyond that is kind of lost on me. Is there a way to force the render to match the input?

And putting frame rates aside, why the conversion from 1558 x 720, to 1280 x 720. If I want to force a certain dimension, I should be able to. Is there anything you see (or saw) in my Media-Info or video properties data that would answer that question? If my new iPhone 11 shoots video "native-ly" at an aspect other than 16:9, (namely, what appears to be "Width = Height x 2.164"), then ought Vegas Movie Studio be able to handle it?

Or is that what updating to the newer versions is for?

KenB wrote on 4/17/2020, 9:26 AM

Sorry John, I don't know what else to say about why VMS chose what it did during rendering. Would it be possible for you to shoot a short clip (a few seconds will do) and upload it to Dropbox or similar and share the link? Then maybe we could have a go ourselves to see what is happening.

Ken.

B3burner wrote on 4/17/2020, 8:21 PM

Sorry John, I don't know what else to say about why VMS chose what it did during rendering. Would it be possible for you to shoot a short clip (a few seconds will do) and upload it to Dropbox or similar and share the link? Then maybe we could have a go ourselves to see what is happening.

Ken.

Ken,

Thanks for your willingness to look into this further, but I'm not sure I understand what it is you'd like to see.

1. The .vf rough draft in edit, showing the screen in 1558 x 720 x 32; 31.579...

2. The .vf while it's in the process of being rendered to .mp4 (but still showing the edit screen) in 1280 x 720 x 24; 15.789...

3. Or the final product on Windows Media Player, being played back as an .mp4 file.

And do you want me to shoot a video of my computer monitor with my phone? Or try to send a file of one of those options directly?

Maybe I should also contact the GPS app author, to apprise him of the situation as well.

In the meantime though, I went back into the archives of all my iphone pics/vids, and when I used this app with my old iPhone 6s, back in 2018, an interesting thing:

iPhone 6s's native resolution was 1334 x 750 (1.778 multiplier... close enough to 16:9). So it fit 1280 x 720 activity relatively well. Here were the results for the GPS app recordings in two different camera video modes-- 1080p, 30 & 60 fps. (Note the app's author said it could only record as high as 720p. Possibly I set it to 1080p in error?).

iPhone 6s Video Camera Setting: 1080p- 60 fps-- 05 April 2018:

File Stored on Computer (.mov): 1280 x 720, 56 fps

Vegas Editor Rough Draft (.vf): 1280 x 720 x 32, 120.000p

Final Render (.mp4): 1280 x 720 x 32, 29.970p

iPhone 6s Video Camera Setting: 1080p- 30 fps-- 04 Oct 2018:

File Stored on Computer (.mov): 1280 x 720, 29 fps

Vegas Editor Rough Draft (.vf): 1280 x 720 x 32, 30.000p

Final Render (.mp4): 1280 x 720 x 32, 30.000p

iPhone 11 Camera Setting: 1080p- 30 fps ("Most Compatible" format)-- 31 Mar 2020:

File Stored on Computer (.mov): 1558 x 720, 30 fps

Vegas Editor Rough Draft (.vf): 1558 x 720 x 32, 31.579p

Final Render (.mp4): 1280 x 720 x 32, 15.789p

Just a really odd combination of final numbers I wouldn't have thought possible. I wonder what would have been the case, had I set the old iPhone 6s to 720p 30 or 60, instead of 1080?

Come to think of it, had I had the iPhone 11 set to 720p- 30fps, would it have made a difference? More investigation to be had. I'll let you know if I discover anything earth shattering.

KenB wrote on 4/18/2020, 7:28 AM

Thanks for your willingness to look into this further, but I'm not sure I understand what it is you'd like to see.

I was hoping you could shoot a few seconds of video with the GPS app in your iPhone, then upload it somewhere so we can try it. It doesn't have to be while you're driving in the car. Just a few seconds of anything will do!

Ken.

B3burner wrote on 4/18/2020, 7:39 PM

Thanks for your willingness to look into this further, but I'm not sure I understand what it is you'd like to see.

I was hoping you could shoot a few seconds of video with the GPS app in your iPhone, then upload it somewhere so we can try it. It doesn't have to be while you're driving in the car. Just a few seconds of anything will do!

Ken.

Here's the drop box link. 7 second sweep from right to left in my backyard.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1I4FciivOwKTjCLYgjN4FKABmFKlPjI57

B3burner wrote on 4/21/2020, 1:00 PM

Being betwixt and between, I think I'll go with 1280 x 720, 30.000p. 30 being the closest to 31.579; without going over 31.100. Once you pick something too much over 30, it splits the frame rates in half. A little double imaging on pause, the but less than at 29.970 and the lower choices, and the smoothest of all of them.

Thanks again for your replies and assistance.

KenB wrote on 4/22/2020, 9:03 AM

Hi John, just letting you know I tried rendering your clip, and I was able to do so to a MP4 at 1558 x 720 and 30.000 fps, using "Render As..."

Ken.

j-v wrote on 4/22/2020, 10:31 AM

Here the same.
When choosing Make Movie >>> to my harddrive >>> as Mp4 >> render, the outcome is this because I have no made preset for its own dimensions.

B3burner wrote on 4/22/2020, 5:17 PM

Hi John, just letting you know I tried rendering your clip, and I was able to do so to a MP4 at 1558 x 720 and 30.000 fps, using "Render As..."

Ken.

Wow! So you were able to "FORCE" the 1558, without it reducing to 1280? What about forcing the 31.579 fps? Did it let you do that? Or did it default to 30.000 fps on its own? This is maddening, because I don't know how you're able to accomplish what I can't. Are you using Vegas Movie Studio 14 like I am? Or are you using a later version? Could I be missing some codecs or features in my v.14? (I think I asked that already... I'm grasping at straws, as you can see here).

I tried it again, and once again I started with 1558 x 720 x 32 31.579 when I put it in the editor. And when I tried to render to an .mp4, it came out as 1280 x 720 x 32, 15.789.

So wait a minute... let me ask you this: When you said ".... using 'Render As' ..." , was there an actual "RENDER AS" button on your version of this program? I don't have a "RENDER AS". This was my pathway for rendering:

1. Left click on "Make Movie" in the gray menu bar ( to the left of "Show Me How").

2. Left click "Save it to my hard drive", the last selection in the gray box at the bottom.

3. Left click " the radio button titled "MP4" , second from the bottom-- below MPEG-2, and above AVCHD.

4. Left click the "Next >" button, all the way at the bottom, between the grayed out "<Back" button to the left, and the "Cancel" button to the right.

-- When it moves from the editor into the cooker... it comes out baked in 1280 x 720 x 32 15.789... and there's nothing I can do about it.

When you get to my step #4, are you hitting "Advanced Options" instead of "Next>" ? I've tried "Advanced Options" already, and all it does is give me a whole host of options I don't really understand the difference between. I experimented with putting a bunch of copies of the same final .vf edit into the cooker, and in all instances I was never able to replicate a 1558 x 720 x 32 at 31.579-- or in your case even a 30.000 fps.

I was able to force a 1280 x 720 x 32, 30.000 fps output, but could never force the 1558.

At this point, I'll just chalk it up to utter weirdness, and go with my 1280 x 720 x 30.000 that I forced from a template. And though there are double-vision ghost images, when I pause the video-- because 30 fps is overlapping on 31.579-- I'll just have to call it good, and call it a day.

Thank you again for your time and patience.

-- John

B3burner wrote on 4/22/2020, 5:37 PM

Here the same.
When choosing Make Movie >>> to my harddrive >>> as Mp4 >> render, the outcome is this because I have no made preset for its own dimensions.

Interesting you were able to get a 29.970 (unless you forced it by choosing a pre-determined setting). I captured my output data as you did, and here's what I came up with:

j-v wrote on 4/23/2020, 3:44 AM

What I did write before when you make a preset for the goal than it renders what you want to do.
When you did not make that preset than with only "Make Movie" your going to the default template that came with the program.
The preset or changes in template you can make 2 ways
1 the "Make Movie" way

2. The menu "Program" >>Render as way which you also can customize

KenB wrote on 4/23/2020, 5:12 AM

Hi John, I used VMS 16 Platinum. I also used the clip you linked to above, which according to MediaInfo has minimum fps 30.000 (whereas the clip you are trying to use has minimum fps 15.000). Anyway, here are the project properties when I add the clip:

I then used Project > Render As and selected "MAGIX AVC/AAC MP4" > "Internet HD 720p 29.97 fps", and I customized the template by setting a custom frame size:

After rendering this, here are the resulting MediaInfo properties:

General
Complete name                            : D:\Users\Ken\Downloads\temp\test16_1.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID                                 : mp42 (isom/mp42)
File size                                : 7.63 MiB
Duration                                 : 7 s 774 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 8 237 kb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2020-04-23 08:51:41
Tagged date                              : UTC 2020-04-23 08:51:41

Video
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : Main@L3.2
Format settings                          : CABAC / 3 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 3 frames
Format settings, GOP                     : M=4, N=15
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 7 s 774 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 8 042 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 16.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 558 pixels
Height                                   : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 2.2:1
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.239
Stream size                              : 7.45 MiB (98%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2020-04-23 08:51:41
Tagged date                              : UTC 2020-04-23 08:51:41
Color range                              : Limited
Codec configuration box                  : avcC

Audio
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AAC LC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID                                 : mp4a-40-2
Duration                                 : 7 s 765 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 192 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 246 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 179 KiB (2%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2020-04-23 08:51:41
Tagged date                              : UTC 2020-04-23 08:51:41

Ken.

KenB wrote on 4/23/2020, 5:19 AM

I also tried VMS 15 Platinum which I still have on my computer. When I added the clip the project properties showed 31.579 fps, and when I rendered this using the same render settings as I did with VMS 16, I found the resulting video had the "ghosting" you noticed in each frame. Even when I forced the project properties to be 30.000 fps, it still had the ghosting when I rendered it. Maybe VMS 16 handles things a bit differently? I suggest you download the VMS 16 Platinum trial and try that with your clip. If it fixes things for you, it would be worth upgrading. You don't need to uninstall VMS 14 while you try it.

Ken.

vkmast wrote on 4/23/2020, 7:35 AM

According to https://www.facebook.com/vegascreativesoftware/ on April 20,

"Only a few days left....#VEGASMovieStudio17"

B3burner wrote on 4/24/2020, 2:15 PM

Thank you all who recently replied. I didn't want you to think I've been ignoring you after you taking time to help me, but I've been under the weather and just staying away from computer projects for now in general. I'll be back with you and reply later.

B3burner wrote on 5/3/2020, 6:43 PM

So after a suitable time away from this to clear my head, and think straight about it again, I returned to it yesterday to look over both 'j-v' and 'Ken B' 's comments [sorry to talk about you in the 3rd person... but since it's an open forum, I'm not quite sure how to handle that], and follow their custom/render diagrams and red box highlighting.

And finally!!!! I want to say I got it to render how I wanted it. 1558 x 720p @ 31.579 fps !!!

Well I was trying to show an image but it wouldn't let me. The media info text display was proof that I had accomplished different than before.

So what made the difference? Both Ken B & j-v said they go to a rendering format titled "MAGIX AVC/AAC MP4". I don't have one that specifically says that in Vegas 14, but I do have one that says, "Main Concept AVC/AAC", which I didn't readily connect to anything I had previously thought I wanted.

Previously, I had always gone to "Video for Windows" since I have a Windows 7 desktop, I figured that must be what I should always pick. From there, I would always picked "HD 720-60p YUV (*)", for complete lack of understanding what the heck I was doing.

From there, I really managed to jump down the rabbit hole and chase my tail around for weeks. I don't think I ever accomplished what I wanted, because it was never really the right choice for me in the first place! That YUV selection wanted to change my frame rate to 59.940 by default. In the custom settings box, it would seem to let me change the frame size and frame rate to what I want; only to change it to something else, upon rendering.

Only after finally choosing "Main Concept AVC/AAC" in the formats section, and "Internet HD 720p" in the Templates section, and then going into the custom settings box to select 1558 x 720, 31.579 fps... was I finally able to get it to render that way. Not sure how I managed to miss that simple step to begin with, except maybe I just wasn't opening myself up to considering other possibilities, so I never thought of the "Main Concept" choice.

While upgrading to a trial version of Vegas 17 sounds tempting, I'm rather content to stay where I am for the time being, as I'm just thrilled that I finally figured out what's been baffling me since the end of March, beginning of April.

Thank you again guys. I appreciate your help and your efforts to get me on the right track.

-- John