Broadcast Delivery with VEGAS Pro

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john_dennis wrote on 3/8/2023, 12:58 PM

@Musicvid @rraud

Here is what Sound Forge sees from the 5.1 stream of the last Grammys.

                                                     Channel 1               Channel 2               Channel 3               Channel 4               Channel 5               Channel 6           
Cursor position (Time)                               00:00:00.000            00:00:00.000            00:00:00.000            00:00:00.000            00:00:00.000            00:00:00.000        
Sample value at cursor (dB)                          -Inf.                   -Inf.                   -Inf.                   -Inf.                   -Inf.                   -Inf.               
Minimum sample position (Time)                       01:25:55.386            02:15:58.927            01:19:31.421            03:01:33.903            01:27:32.353            01:27:32.353        
Minimum sample value (dB)                            -4.753                  -4.525                  -3.268                  -13.148                 -8.478                  -8.185              
Maximum sample position (Time)                       01:53:09.335            02:15:58.931            01:14:20.607            02:00:16.406            01:27:32.359            01:27:32.359        
Maximum sample value (dB)                            -4.661                  -4.496                  -3.362                  -13.184                 -8.942                  -8.815              
RMS level (dB)                                       -25.573                 -25.588                 -24.675                 -42.110                 -38.117                 -38.421             
Average value (dB)                                   -Inf.                   -Inf.                   -Inf.                   -Inf.                   -Inf.                   -Inf.               
Zero crossings (Hz)                                  1,696.86                1,719.56                1,798.80                68.43                   2,004.74                2,042.31            
Maximum true peak sample position (Time)             01:25:55.387            03:25:36.580            01:14:20.607            03:01:33.903            01:27:32.353            01:27:32.353        
Maximum true peak sample value (dBTP)                -4.609                  -4.146                  -3.192                  -13.148                 -8.476                  -8.184              
Maximum filtered true peak sample position (Time)    00:28:14.207            03:25:36.580            01:14:20.607            03:01:33.903            01:27:32.353            01:27:32.353        
Maximum filtered true peak sample value (dBTP)       -4.521                  -4.146                  -3.105                  -13.148                 -8.420                  -8.134              

Integrated Loudness (LUFS)        -20.26
Loudness Range (LU)             2.90
Maximum True Peak Loudness (dBTP)    -3.19
Maximum Short-Term Loudness (LUFS)    -17.71
Maximum Momentary Loudness (LUFS)    -15.64

Here is what Sound Forge sees from the Second Audio stream of the last Grammys.

                                                                         
Cursor position (Time)                               00:00:00.000        
Sample value at cursor (dB)                          -Inf.               
Minimum sample position (Time)                       02:39:55.153        
Minimum sample value (dB)                            -4.809              
Maximum sample position (Time)                       01:27:54.939        
Maximum sample value (dB)                            -3.834              
RMS level (dB)                                       -25.933             
Average value (dB)                                   -Inf.               
Zero crossings (Hz)                                  1,638.45            
Maximum true peak sample position (Time)             01:27:54.939        
Maximum true peak sample value (dBTP)                -3.828              
Maximum filtered true peak sample position (Time)    01:27:54.939        
Maximum filtered true peak sample value (dBTP)       -3.828              

Integrated Loudness (LUFS)        -25.85
Loudness Range (LU)             3.20
Maximum True Peak Loudness (dBTP)    -3.83
Maximum Short-Term Loudness (LUFS)    -22.87
Maximum Momentary Loudness (LUFS)    -20.21

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 3/8/2023, 7:02 PM

@alifftudm95 Some Vegas plugins for lufs were discussed in this thread. I just open an audio render in Sound Forge 16 and run the tools/statistics function as shown above to see the Integrated Loudness (LUFS).

RogerS wrote on 3/8/2023, 11:08 PM

Vegas can also give you a loudness log txt file with similar info. I use that a lot.

john_dennis wrote on 3/8/2023, 11:25 PM

I'm somewhat surprised that Sound Forge Process / Normalize / Loudness is not mentioned more often. While I was trying to manipulate the peaks in another project, I stumbled upon this circular workflow.

Disclaimer: Nothing in this video is ready for prime time.

@rraud @Musicvid It's unlikely that I'll ever be "shamed" for any of my submissions for lack of submissions.

If anyone ever does, I'll probably get really defensive and yell, "But what about all that distorted, portrait-mode camera phone video?" and stomp out of the room.

Musicvid wrote on 3/8/2023, 11:50 PM

Sadly, my copy of Sound Forge Pro (13) does not have this function, which would be helpful for quick checks.

john_dennis wrote on 3/9/2023, 12:27 AM

I went from Sound Forge 4.5 to 9 to 15. There's a pattern here.

alifftudm95 wrote on 3/9/2023, 3:42 AM

I was adviced to export out regular MP4 video from VEGAS Pro and re-export via Resolve with the programe built in "Normalizer" ebu128 standard.

 

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RogerS wrote on 3/9/2023, 4:31 AM

Why not just bounce a wav to fairlight and then do the final render from Vegas?

Former user wrote on 3/9/2023, 4:50 AM

I was adviced to export out regular MP4 video from VEGAS Pro and re-export via Resolve with the programe built in "Normalizer" ebu128 standard.

 

@alifftudm95 I mentioned before TV stations don't like Auto GOP, and last I knew Resolve does Auto GOP XDCAM which is out of spec, the last codec you mentioned after getting back to the TV station is compliant.

Fancy that, Vegas on top.. But I guess they're fine with that, you can judge the reliability of the information based on who told you that

Musicvid wrote on 3/9/2023, 7:55 AM

I was adviced to export out regular MP4 video from VEGAS Pro and re-export via Resolve with the programe built in "Normalizer" ebu128 standard.

There is no need for all the time and drawbacks of doing a generational render in another editor. The tools in Vegas, with or without plugins, work just fine. If you are leveling to EBU R128, set the Loudness meters accordingly, and strictly conform the Integrated LUFS and True Peak Max to the published standard. You'll be fine.

Set up the meters exactly like this, play your timeline program from beginning to end, and watch the warning indicators! That will guide you to an EBU R128 Broadcast Compliant product without fail.

rraud wrote on 3/9/2023, 9:30 AM

Sadly, my copy of Sound Forge Pro (13) does not have this function, which would be helpful for quick checks.

The "Statistics' tool in all versions of Sound Forge Pro, starting with SFP-11 measures loudness. There is also real-time "Loudness meters" for ATSC and EBU in the "View" menu. Audio Studio and earlier versions of SFP have the 'Statistics' tool, but do not include LU loudness (only min and max 'Peak' and 'RMS').

btw, the integrated factor in the 'traditional' LU 'View> Loudness meter' in SFP-13 is not right. The Statistics measurement is accurate though.

NickHope wrote on 3/9/2023, 10:24 AM

...

My go-to Limiter/Compressor with calibrated Loudness scales is the unmatched Toneboosters Barricade. You can use it in Demo mode, and there is actually a free version, but you have to hunt for it.

...

V3 is in the "Legacy" download at the bottom of https://www.toneboosters.com/changelog.html

It also contains some other TB plugins, as described at https://bedroomproducersblog.com/2022/02/22/toneboosters-free/

rraud wrote on 3/9/2023, 12:05 PM

The legacy Barricade v3 does not monitor 'integrated' loudness, just dBTP. Otherwise a clean sounding brickwall limiter. V4 has the advanced metering.

Musicvid wrote on 3/9/2023, 12:37 PM

Thanks both @rraud and @NickHope for filling in details.

john_dennis wrote on 3/9/2023, 4:24 PM

Though probably not the best for music, for much of what I shoot, a well-tailored compressor fX placed on the track can work wonders on those pesky peaks. Great for gun shots and slamming doors.

rraud wrote on 3/10/2023, 9:49 AM

Wave Hammer is a two-stage comp/limiter which can be useful. The second-stage can be easily overdrive producing distortion and will muddy up dialog with excessive amounts of gain reduction. However the type of distortion it produces (1176 FET) can be desirable on some music tracks or buses.
Another favorite is TDR's 'Limiter No 6' which can have up to five stages of comp/limiting.. It may be complicated for non-audio folks though.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 3/10/2023, 10:42 AM

Vegas Wave Hammer Surround is what I use for catv broadcast deliverables in the US. The spec I usually have to conform to is -6 db maximum peaking. I just mix as normal to my target rms or lufs with peaking at -0.5 db, for instance for YouTube deliverables or whatever. Then activate wave hammer on the output bus to create a special mix for catv deliverables. For that, I bypass the Compressor and set both Threshold and Output Level to -6 db on the Volume Maximizer tab. The rms levels don't change. Never double-checked lufs since my syndicators don't specify that.

john_dennis wrote on 3/10/2023, 1:09 PM

@Howard-Vigorita said: "I bypass the Compressor and set both Threshold and Output Level to -6 db on the Volume Maximizer tab. "

I tried your method and it worked as you said without any fiddling around.

I suspect the effect on the volume of the whole program is a function of the amount of program material that is above the -6 db level. That could be all over the place. Here are the Loudness Logs for the short subject (03:27) I was using.

Before

Results:

Mom. (max):     -12.75 (LUFS) at 00:03:11.488
Short (max):     -15.88 (LUFS) at 00:03:14.048
Integrated:     -24.08 (LUFS)

After

Results:

Mom. (max):     -15.06 (LUFS) at 00:03:14.389
Short (max):     -17.33 (LUFS) at 00:03:14.389
Integrated:     -25.54 (LUFS)

 

john_dennis wrote on 3/10/2023, 1:40 PM

@rraud said: "the type of distortion it produces (1176 FET)"

Long, long ago in a land far, far away an electronics instructor of mine was moaning about the non-linearity of bipolar transistors compared to tubes. He showed the class a response curve of a tube, likely a 12AX7/ECC83.

He tried to impress us with the relative linearity of the device without massive amounts of negative feedback in the circuit. His only hope for the future was the Field Effect Transistor. I don't remember the type he used for an example.

Apparently, some people look back fondly on equipment built with field effect transistors as the "good old days".

Anyone who has traveled with tube-type amplifiers may not feel as nostalgic as my instructor.

There's the time you set up on stage and find the tubes in the bottom of the amp from the rough drive.

Then, there's the time when you look over at the guitar player's amp and the output tubes start to glow redder than you've ever seen just before they stop working.

Oh, the "good old days".

rraud wrote on 3/10/2023, 2:59 PM

The early 80s MesaBoogie guitar amps were notorious for loosening tubes in transit, I encounted many

Musicvid wrote on 3/10/2023, 6:26 PM

We would flip coins to see who had to check the mikes for ground polarity. If someone f***ed up on stage they were automatically "it" next gig.