[Mostly solved] Additional performance advice?

Gordon-Fecyk wrote on 12/16/2022, 8:08 PM

[This is mostly solved now.]

I was a long time Vegas user that just upgraded from v14 to v20 - I was entitled to the non-subscription upgrade.

What a major difference between v14 and v20, notably in the (lack of) performance. The UI is much laggier, unusable in a stock state, compared to loading the same project on v14.

I think I have the worst of the performance kinks worked out though, but I'd like to know any other performance improvement tips I might have missed.

I spent my first week digging through this forum looking for performance tips, and came up with these so far:

  • Turn off audio scrubbing with an obscure Internal setting (Pause Scrub = 0)
  • Turn off all GPU acceleration in Display and Video preferences
  • Turn off all legacy features such as Legacy Text
  • Use Alternate High DPI Settings under Display preferences
  • Avoid all GPU-accelerated rendering
  • Assign more RAM and rendering threads under Video preferences

Fortunately I found that the one TTF font I use the most, something called "Square 721," no longer requires the Legacy Text media type to work. Also, when any GPU rendering option was enabled, this one project I had would constantly stop rendering at a specific frame, but after disabling all GPU rendering I could finally squeeze out a final video. Granted that project had almost all 4k source media and the final product was only 1080p, but it did manage, and at a render rate comparable to the same project on v14.

I'm going to try cutting one more video in a series I have. Maybe using fresh media on a new project, instead of importing a project from v14, will help speed things up.

I'll try to fill in my system details, source media details, workflow, and intended final product as best as I can. I'd love to make a project archive available for people to inspect, if it wasn't 100 GB in size.

System:

  • Intel Core i9 10900 2.8 GHz, 32 GB RAM, 512 GB NVME OS drive, 4 TB hybrid drive for storage, all on a MSI Z490M mainboard
  • BIOS settings adjusted to give the GPU 16 PCIe lanes ("Auto" would cause lag in some games)
  • NVidia RTX 3070 Founder's Edition GPU, using Studio drivers and not Game drivers
  • OS is Windows 10 Pro 21H2, which I tend to keep very clean - for instance I have Software Restriction Policy enabled and I run my apps as a non-administrator where possible

Software:

  • VEGAS Pro v20 Build 214 (which I think is Update 1)
  • Goldwave for audio editing
  • Handbrake v1.5.1 for transcoding from Apple MOV to M4V AVC / AAC variable bit rate

Source media:

  • Apple iPhone 11 Pro, either 1080p60 or 4k60, hence the transcoding to M4V
  • NVidia Share captures to 1080p60
  • Random static images, WAV audio, MP3 audio

I do admit to getting silly with the 4k source material. To reduce the pain on v14, I would turn off automatic proxy generation, and instead import all source media into the project, followed by triggering proxy generation for all media that supported it. This would take a couple of hours, after which editing was not as much of a pain. I turned off automatic proxy generation on v20 as well, with the intent of importing all sources and generating proxies as a batch.

If all else fails to improve UI performance, I'll consider replacing this PC, maybe even using a RAID-0 array of SSDs for storage instead of the hybrid drive. I'm thinking even of building a dual processor PC, just so I can have the 16 PCIe lanes for the GPU plus a dedicated PCIe x8 RAID card for storage.

Comments

Reyfox wrote on 12/17/2022, 4:39 AM

Your PC specs are fine as far as I know. I almost always edit 4K from Panasonic cameras.

In Options>Preferences>Video tab, Thumbnails to show in video events, what is it set to? The best response is Head and tail.

I have no issues with timeline editing, moving clips, adding effects, etc.. Timeline playback is affected though.

I do have GPU acceleration and render with AMD VCE and have not noticed anything out of the ordinary. Using 5% of RAM for Dynamic Preview. I do have Proxies enabled to create them with greater than 4K resolution. But I don't work in anything higher than UHD 4K.

Last changed by Reyfox on 12/17/2022, 4:43 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Newbie😁

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Sapphire RX6700XT 12GB Driver: Pro 23.Q3

Gigabyte X570 Elite Motherboard

Panasonic G9, G7, FZ300

MH7 wrote on 12/17/2022, 5:07 AM

I must admit in my 30-day trial period of VEGAS Post 20, with using VEGAS Pro 20, I did find that just trying to resize the preview window did lag a bit more in VEGAS Pro 20 vs my VEGAS Pro 18. I did wonder why that would be.

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Reyfox wrote on 12/17/2022, 5:10 AM

On my computer, I just tried resized the preview window. It was fast and responsive. No delays.

Newbie😁

Vegas Pro 22 (VP18-21 also installed)

Win 11 Pro always updated

AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 16 cores / 32 threads

32GB DDR4 3200

Sapphire RX6700XT 12GB Driver: Pro 23.Q3

Gigabyte X570 Elite Motherboard

Panasonic G9, G7, FZ300

RogerS wrote on 12/17/2022, 5:28 AM

I wouldn't upgrade this machine, it's fine for Vegas editing. The problem is that certain media don't play well with the GPU options in Vegas. You figured out that one way around it is to disable the GPU but that undermines the main advantage 20 has over 14.

The better way is to give Vegas media that it likes. For example, Apple ProRes or h.264 that's constant framerate, short GOP. You figured that out for the phone files but now need to do that for the captures, too.

If you want to test out the standard Vegas settings on a known good project here's a benchmark one you can use.

Gordon-Fecyk wrote on 12/18/2022, 8:34 PM

Thanks to everyone that responded. I've attempted some changes since my original post:

  • Changed Handbrake to output to constant frame rate instead of peak frame rate
  • Am including NVidia Share captures in Handbrake processing
  • Added two Handbrake parameters to transcoding: keyint=150:min-keyint=30 to get short GOP
  • Turned some GPU processing back on, but am still using pure software rendering

I only had to add one M4V media item to a new project to experience UI lag. This is still in contrast to v14. I couldn't see how to enforce a constant bit rate in Handbrake yet so that might help yet.

I haven't grabbed the benchmark project but I should do so. I'll update this thread after doing so.

RogerS wrote on 12/18/2022, 8:39 PM

I think even a shorter key interval is best for Vegas. Try max 1 second and see if it helps.

Constant framerate in Handbrake is good; constant bitrate is unnecessary. Keep GPU decoding on with default settings in preferences/ file io.

Musicvid wrote on 12/18/2022, 9:26 PM

Apple iPhone 11 Pro, either 1080p60 or 4k60, hence the transcoding to M4V

That's your weakest link. Acquisition technology, whether iPhone or GoPro or BlackMagic, always precedes the hardware development curve by a couple of years. When you are ready to upgrade your equipment, newer acquisition formats are already on the scene. But who "really" needs them?

fr0sty wrote on 12/18/2022, 9:30 PM

Doesn't OBS allow you to specify the GOP structure of the video it captures (I think it's in the advanced tab, it lets you specify the elapsed time between keyframes)? That might be a better option for capturing video from your PC, as you could bypass the handbrake encode pass for the screen captures you were doing with Nvidia share... assuming Nvidia doesn't also let you specify short GOP.

Last changed by fr0sty on 12/18/2022, 9:31 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Gordon-Fecyk wrote on 12/21/2022, 8:44 PM

I have the benchmarking project. The UI is much more responsive with this project and its 4k media loaded than with any of the 4k projects I've built, but the source media is only 25 FPS compared to the 59.94 FPS I've been recording in.

This being said, I can make the attempt to transcode my source media to match this benchmark media, using the same codecs and such, just using 59.94 FPS and a matching bit rate.

I think the source media captured with NVidia Share isn't the problem though. I have more of a problem with the transcoded media from the iPhone 11.

Thanks again for all of you that provided pointers so far. I might just be using Vegas 20 wrong.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 12/22/2022, 9:11 PM

When working with double frames rates, like 60p, I find setting the project to a single rate like 30p makes edit and playback in Vegas more smooth. I set it back to double for the final render.

Btw, x16 vrs x8 pci doesn't seem to affect Vegas much at all, far as I can tell. I think it mostly affects games. I throw a 2nd gpu in my systems which makes both boards run at x8... and Vegas does everything faster than before.

The 3070 is a capable gpu and getting the most out of it benefits newer versions of Vegas. Also, the base i9 10900 should have a built-in Intel uhd630 igpu which is pretty good at rendering qsv and decoding many common formats like the Nvidia Share you mentioned. Don't forget to install its drivers. MSI supplies this one. You might want to grab updates for your bios and chipset drivers while you're there.

A problem I've heard mentioned about the iphone 11 video is variable frame-rate over too wide a range... if that's the case, and you cannot turn that off, transcoding to fixed frame rate may be the only solution. If you upload a sample clip to a cloud drive or post the MediaInfo on it, that would help determine if that's the problem.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 12/23/2022, 12:25 AM

I would not turn off all GPU acceleration all the time. That is not a good idea, because playback and the effect calculations are supported by nvidia GPUs in a nice way. And some footage will run much better, especially long-GOP footage, if a good GPU in enabled in options/preferences/video tab.

Only, if you run into troubles, you should test how it works without GPU.

But there is an easy test to see, how the GPU support is required for your type of footage. Make a small projekt with your footage, one part in the timeline withour effect. A second part with some relevant effects, like the color grading portal. Save that test project, because every time you change here something, you have to shut down Vegas, and start it again. And test the preview capabilities if you playback the footage - with different settings for the preview.

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Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

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Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

relaxvideo wrote on 12/23/2022, 1:20 AM

"I set it back to double for the final render."

Why? Thats not the way how Vegas rendering works :)
It depends on render settings not the project timeline fps setting.

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Wolfgang S. wrote on 12/23/2022, 2:42 AM

"I set it back to double for the final render."

Why? Thats not the way how Vegas rendering works :)
It depends on render settings not the project timeline fps setting.

Not sure if that is correct. If you change a project with 50p/60p footage from 50p/60p to 25p/30p in the project settings (and I do that also for performance reasons sometime), then different points are calculated with 25p/30p instead 50p/60p - to my opinion.

But I have to state that I am not sure about that. Years ago, there was a signal flow diagramm for Vegas available. Maybe that would answer this question.

Β 

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

john_dennis wrote on 12/23/2022, 2:21 PM

If you decide to cut at a different frame rate than the delivery frame rate, you should check that the cuts are quantized to a frame boundary before the final render.

Other than this admonition, what you do in the privacy of your own home makes no difference to me. Unintentional gaps have caused problems for me in the past, though.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/please-test-the-amd-vce-uhd-render-in-vegas-pro-15-and-16--114956/

Also, give some thought to the Project Properties Ruler.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/unquantized-frames--135242/

Gordon-Fecyk wrote on 12/23/2022, 6:56 PM

I wanted to report back and thank everyone again for tips.

I discovered that the raw 4k60 video from the iPhone 11 Pro seems to play a lot nicer with Vegas 20 than it did with Vegas 14, and without needing QuickTime installed now. Looks like a lot more has changed than realized.

When transferring from the phone, I used the "Keep Originals" setting. This doesn't play well in Windows Media Player even with the right codecs, but it seems to manage in Vegas 20. No more transcoding. It seems whatever Handbrake was doing was not working well with Vegas 20, and carrying an old habit over from Vegas 14 hurt more than expected.

The UI seems a lot smoother, though there are still noticeable pauses, but it can handle a 20 minute project with 4k60 source material direct from the phone.

I believe we don't need any more responses or advice, at least for now. Thanks again.

Former user wrote on 12/23/2022, 8:27 PM

It seems whatever Handbrake was doing was not working well with Vegas 20, and carrying an old habit over from Vegas 14 hurt more than expected.

You're victim blaming yourself. There is no excuse for any NLE to not be able to play a 60fps AVC (I assume this is what you're doing 4K60 10 bit HEVC to either 4K60 8bit or 10bit AVC. I am going to guess 8bit, because you will have GPU decode on 8bit, but not 10bit, and it's the GPU decoder that lags mostly with high frame rates. Your CPU would probably do a better job without GPU decoding in this example.

But it is true what you say, default transcodes with Shutter Encoder and Handbrake using default settings will often still lag, and modifications need to made to advantage a weaker render engine and defective GPU decoder for best editing experience

As for Iphone HEVC 10bit. Yes they have much improved playback, displayed only a black screen at one point, then display without GPU decoding, and now plays very well for HEVC on vegas with gpu decoding

Β 

RogerS wrote on 12/23/2022, 11:17 PM

We can probably help with Handbrake settings if you want.

ken-coughlin wrote on 1/15/2025, 11:44 PM

I realize this is an old thread but, thanks @RogerS for the benchmark. Based on my results, I'm not doing too bad, but it's hard to figure out where I can improve my performance, since there's no one else using a similar computer/cpu setup. I do mostly editing and rendering of 4K and 1080p files. I don't do any capturing. I'm not having an issue with my edits, but I would like to improve my rendering speed. My typical render is MP4/1080p 29.97fps. I also render WMV for a specific set of projects.

I have 2 GTX 970s and an SLI Bridge, but my system, though it is SLI capable, will not enable SLI for these cards. I'm looking to replace them with a more powerful, up to date card. I've been looking at getting an RTX 3080 TI, but looking at the benchmark, it appears the the Arc 750 is also giving good render times. It's hard to determine if it's the card or the CPU, since the systems are different, and it's even harder to determine what effect it will have on my system, which is using 2 Xeon Gold 6138 CPUs in a Dell Precision 7920 Tower.

I have done a number of things to try to improve render performance, like increasing threads to 48, increasing memory usage to 50%, but these settings don't seem to make an appreciable difference. With so many options for hardware and the settings in the software, it's hard to know where you're going to get the most improvement.

RogerS wrote on 1/15/2025, 11:53 PM

Hi Ken, I would first start by seeing what CPUs are generally comparable to yours (not many of use use workstation CPUs). One benchmark indicates it's like a 9th generation i9 for multicore performance. https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/intel-xeon-gold-6138 I am not sure how well VEGAS uses multiple CPUs and assume not fully.

So you can see which CPUs that are similar (9th, 10th generation i7 or i9) and how they perform with different GPUs.

I think your GPU is a weak point and if you get a decent one you could also take it with you to a new system when you upgrade. I wouldn't put other money into this system as you can see its performance lags behind even mid-range laptops.

A 3080 Ti is a great choice. The Arc's big strength is good media decoding as well, but you said you're not having any playback issues. Its weakness is processing power for Fx (see the VP 20 benchmark, too), so I'd suggest a 3080, 4070, 5070, etc. Arc also needs newer motherboards I believe with resizable bar support.

I would put dynamic ram preview back to the default and don't think any settings will make a difference.

Render to MagixAVC with NVENC to use GPU encoding (WMV doesn't use GPU encoding circuitry) and that's about as good as this system can do.

ken-coughlin wrote on 1/16/2025, 10:21 AM

@RogerS thanks for the advice. Looking at the MultiCore score, my CPUs come in ahead of the i7-9800X. In the benchmark the only i7-9800X uses a Vega FE. Comparing that to the Arc A750 & RTX 3080-Ti, the 3080-Ti wins out. So I guess that's the way to go. I did see that the latest VBios for my 7920 includes Resizeable BAR support.

As for WMV, I run movies for non-profit, including an annual film festival. I sometimes have to run up to 8 films in sequence. To do that, I use QLC+. Since the only format it will play natively is WMV, I use that instead of installing something like K-Lite codecs.

Choosing the right computer and components has certainly gotten a lot more complex since I started programming in the early 1970s. 😁

john_dennis wrote on 1/16/2025, 11:50 AM

@ken-coughlin

Show us a screenshot of your Task Manager at render time. Make it look like this:

ken-coughlin wrote on 1/16/2025, 2:50 PM

@ken-coughlin

Show us a screenshot of your Task Manager at render time. Make it look like this:

This was taken moments after I started Roger's benchmark render. No other foreground tasks running, just Vegas & Task Manager.

ken-coughlin wrote on 1/16/2025, 3:07 PM

@john_dennis

This picture may be clearer.

john_dennis wrote on 1/16/2025, 3:29 PM

@ken-coughlin

You're leaving a lot of hardware resources fallow. Download and try AVC/AAC renders with Voukoder (Link: https://www.voukoder.org/) to see if you can make better use of all the processor cores you have sitting idle.

Report back.