Rendering Quaility

vcllvc wrote on 9/2/2013, 6:11 PM
I recently bought a new Sony hdr-p650v and shoot my vacation footages on AVCHD 60P. The original footages come out excellent. I then use Movie studio edit the footages and render the final video as AVCHD 60i format. But the final quality just does not look as great as the original. I'd set the "Video rendering quality" to Best in the Project tab.Can someone help?

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 9/2/2013, 6:30 PM
Yes, but only if you'll post your original footage properties, render properties in Vegas, and rendered video properties. Use MediaInfo from SourceForge (don't install any extra "toolbars").

Also, why are you converting 60p to 60i? The only reason would be if you are burning a BluRay, and you wouldn't use an AVCHD template for that.
Markk655 wrote on 9/2/2013, 8:24 PM
Musicvid,

You probably have the answer. :)

I don't think that there are any defined 60p templates in Movie Studio 12. The OP likely needs to flip the 'no interlace' switch as a customization.
vcllvc wrote on 9/2/2013, 8:46 PM
Original properties:
Video: 00:00:11.011, 59.940 fps progressive, 1920x1080x12, AVC
Audio 1: 00:00:11.011, 48,000 Hz, 5.1 Surround (stereo downmix), Dolby AC-3
Audio 2: 00:00:11.011, 48,000 Hz, 5.1 Surround, Dolby AC-3


Render properties in Vegas:
1st render test: using the AVCHD 1920x1080-60i 5.1 surround template as follow:
Audio: 448 Kbps, 48,000 Hz, 24 Bit, 5.1, AC3
Video: 29.970 fps, 1920x1080 Upper field first, YUV, 16 Mbps
Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.000

2nd render test: I created custom template for AVCHD 60p as follow:
Audio: 448 Kbps, 48,000 Hz, 24 Bit, 5.1, AC3
Video: 59.940 fps, 1920x1080 Progressive, YUV, 16 Mbps
Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.000


Final rendered video properties:
from 1st render test:
Video: 00:05:35.569, 29.970 fps interlaced, 1920x1080x12, AVC
Audio 1: 00:05:39.055, 48,000 Hz, 5.1 Surround (stereo downmix), Dolby AC-3
Audio: 00:05:35.569, 48,000 Hz, Stereo, Dolby AC-3

from 2nd render test:
Video: 00:05:39.039, 59.940 fps progressive, 1920x1080x12, AVC
Audio 1: 00:05:39.055, 48,000 Hz, 5.1 Surround (stereo downmix), Dolby AC-3
Audio 2: 00:05:39.055, 48,000 Hz, 5.1 Surround, Dolby AC-3

Since the Movie Studio 12.0 doesn't have a template for AVCHD 60p, I created a custom template for 60p based on the 60i. The custom template properties are posted as above. Please let me know if you need more information. THANKS for your help.

BTW, both of the qualities from my 1st and 2nd render test video are not as good as the original source. Even more frustrating me is the video quality of the 1st render test (60i template) looks better that the 2nd render test (my custom 60p template) when I watch them on my computer. I can see there are more pixels on objects edges and artifacts from the 60p than the 60i one. I don't know if that make any sense to you.
Markk655 wrote on 9/2/2013, 8:58 PM
This is AVCHD 2.0, right?

A guess...

In Project properties, how do you have it set up? Try matching properties to one of the 60p clips. You should end up with Field order - none, deinterlace method - none.

For rendering, I think you found this, but it is worth checking that the 60p setting (59.94 fps) is also without interlacing. Make sure it is explicit.

MusicVid will likely be able to solve it once he reads your response.



vcllvc wrote on 9/2/2013, 9:43 PM
The camcorder spec stated AVCHD format ver.2.0 compatible. I guess that mean it's AVCHD 2.0

In Project properties, the Field order is set to "None (progressive scan)", and the Deinterlace method is "none"

For rendering, the Frame rate is 59.940 (Double NTSC), and the Field order is grey out to be "None (progressive scan)"

Again, thanks for everyone's prompt response.
musicvid10 wrote on 9/2/2013, 9:52 PM
vcllvc,
You've actually told me nothing. Nada.
Please post the FULL MEDIAINFO PROPERTIES so we can see the differences.
Last time, MediaInfo is a free download from Sourceforge.
Thanks.
vcllvc wrote on 9/2/2013, 10:24 PM
ok. Here they are from MediaInfo.

Original footage:
General
ID/String : 0 (0x0)
CompleteName : E:\SonyPlayMemories\7-4-2013\20130704120929.m2ts
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
FileSize/String : 51.2 MiB
Duration/String : 16s 466ms
OverallBitRate_Mode/String : Variable
OverallBitRate/String : 26.1 Mbps
OverallBitRate_Maximum/String : 28.0 Mbps

Video
ID/String : 4113 (0x1011)
MenuID/String : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format_Profile : High@L4.2
Format_Settings_CABAC/String : Yes
Format_Settings_RefFrames/String : 2 frames
Format_Settings_GOP : M=1, N=15
CodecID : 27
Duration/String : 16s 516ms
BitRate_Mode/String : Variable
BitRate/String : 24.6 Mbps
BitRate_Maximum/String : 26.0 Mbps
Width/String : 1 920 pixels
Height/String : 1 080 pixels
DisplayAspectRatio/String : 16:9
FrameRate/String : 59.940 fps
ColorSpace : YUV
ChromaSubsampling : 4:2:0
BitDepth/String : 8 bits
ScanType/String : Progressive
Bits-(Pixel*Frame) : 0.198
StreamSize/String : 48.4 MiB (95%)

Audio
ID/String : 4352 (0x1100)
MenuID/String : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Format_Settings_ModeExtension : CM (complete main)
Format_Settings_Endianness : Big
CodecID : 129
Duration/String : 16s 544ms
BitRate_Mode/String : Constant
BitRate/String : 448 Kbps
Channel(s)/String : 6 channels
ChannelPositions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
SamplingRate/String : 48.0 KHz
BitDepth/String : 16 bits
Compression_Mode/String : Lossy
StreamSize/String : 905 KiB (2%)

Text
ID/String : 4608 (0x1200)
MenuID/String : 1 (0x1)
Format : PGS
CodecID : 144
Duration/String : 15s 951ms


Final rendered video short clip:
General
ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : C:\Users\kuser\Documents\Movie Studio Platinum 12.0 Projects\2013-07_7.m2ts
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 84.8 MiB
Duration : 45s 269ms
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 15.7 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 18.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.2
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=2, N=30
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 29s 596ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 14.6 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 26.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 59.940 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.118
Stream size : 51.5 MiB (61%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 45s 269ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -16ms
Stream size : 2.42 MiB (3%)


musicvid10 wrote on 9/3/2013, 1:57 PM
Your source bitrate is 24.6 Mbps. Your render bitrate is 14.6 Mbps. That's only 68% the data of your original. Add to that normal generational losses, and you've got your answer hands down. See how easy that was once you posted the needed information?
vcllvc wrote on 9/3/2013, 10:31 PM
Thanks. I see your point. But I've already set the Bit Rate to 26.0Mbps in the "Render As" I think that turns out to be the "Maximum bit rate " in the final rendered video. So is there a way to control the bitrate to be exactly matching the original source?
musicvid10 wrote on 9/4/2013, 12:02 PM
Vegas does not smart-render AVC. If you are just doing simple join / trim operations, it can be done in VideoRedo. What is the intended use for your rendered video? BluRay or something else?
vcllvc wrote on 9/4/2013, 12:31 PM
so you mean even specifcailly set the bit rate to 26Mbps in the Render As, it still render to 14.6Mbps? Is it a bug in the Render As? Or just for the AVC format?
I want to join/trim my home video and add date/location, add transition between clips, also adjust sound and add music clip. I want to keep the highest qualiity as I can get from the original source, if possible.
musicvid10 wrote on 9/4/2013, 3:43 PM
That should not happen. Test again, and copy or screenshot your render properties. it may be a known bug, but I'm not sure. again, what is your intended use?
vcllvc wrote on 9/4/2013, 7:58 PM
I'd like to keep a highest quality home video so that I can watch and enjoy them in the future.
videoITguy wrote on 9/4/2013, 8:54 PM
vctlvc, you have not answered the ?s Your intended use in the form of what media output?
if this is project is getting you frightened by technical aspects, then I can assure you there will be nothing more in the pristine original quality than the originals - keep them on your harddrive for home use.

ON THE OTHER Hand - if you are going the route of burning a Blu-ray one-off for set-top player??????
vcllvc wrote on 9/4/2013, 9:55 PM
Ok, sorry for misunderstanding the question. I want to keep the final video in my NAS so that I can watch them from any computers and smart tv at home.
musicvid10 wrote on 9/4/2013, 10:18 PM
There 'ya go -- render a high quality intermediate from Vegas and do the final encode in Handbrake. You won't need all that bitrate to get the results you need. And for pete's sake, keep it progressive format.
vcllvc wrote on 9/5/2013, 8:10 AM
Render a high quality intermediate-- do you mean in avi format?
Should I keep in the original 60p or 24p?
musicvid10 wrote on 9/5/2013, 9:25 AM
Search the forums for "intermediate" and "Handbrake." You'll find plenty of information.
Your intermediate should have exactly the same properties as your source.
720 30p from Handbrake will probably play better over your home network than 1080 60p.
vcllvc wrote on 9/5/2013, 1:14 PM
you mention that the intermediate should have exactly the sam properties as my source, if i understand correctly that mean the frame rate, resolution, .... and the bit rate, etc should be the same. Am I correct? If yes, i think my problem here is I can't get the bit rate matching up the original 24.6 Mbps. No matter how i set the rendering, I can only get 14.6 Mbps.
I am sorry i am a video professional I may not getting your point. But i really appreciate your help.
musicvid10 wrote on 9/5/2013, 2:15 PM
Intermediates generally use lossless intraframe compression -- thus the bitrate will be much higher than the original. To be completely specific, resolution, frame rate, interlace properties, and color space should be exactly the same as the source because you don't want to change anything in Vegas! Handbrake does all the heavy lifting; that's the principle behind using an external encoder with advanced processing capabilities.

I'm thinking it's time for you to look at the tutorial and many other resources available, get your feet wet, and plan on making plenty of mistakes. That's how any of us learned. The Better method in the tutorial works for most people. Run lots of tests, and post back when you run into snags.
Best of luck.
vcllvc wrote on 9/5/2013, 5:04 PM
In my previous post, i meant to say I am NOT a video professional.

Well, I'd been trying and looking for tutorial on my spare time. I'd been editing my HDV for last 4 years with Vegas and very happy with the outcome. Now, I get a new Sony camcorder that is capable to take AVCHD 60p 24.6 Mbps video. The problem is after i finish my editing in vegas using the same AVCHD format, and no matter how i set the biterate in the project to match up the original source, vegas only render my video to 14.6Mbps. I start thinking it's a bug for AVCHD 60p 24.6Mbps source.


vkmast wrote on 9/5/2013, 5:50 PM
It probably is something of a known bug, as musicvid10 earlier said as well.
See this thread on the Pro forum
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=799574
A couple of other similar threads too I think.
musicvid10 wrote on 9/5/2013, 7:09 PM
Regardless of bug or not, AVCHD was never intended as a delivery format, but for acquisition and a compatibility for authoring BluRay. Even if you get that bitrate, playback on your home network is likely to be a crapshoot. You would be better off with mp4/x264. Watch the video.

Chienworks wrote on 9/5/2013, 9:26 PM
Bit rate in and bit rate out really have almost nothing to do with each other. Higher bitrates generally allow higher quality, but there's nothing 'magical' about matching the output bitrate to the input.

When Vegas renders your video it decompresses the source video, then recompresses the result to write the finished video. There is a complete disconnect between decompression and recompression; nothing about the process carries over from the first step to the second, so the quality of the recompression is based solely on the recompression step.

When you specify the 24.6Mbps for the output, are you sure you're entering that as an average and not a maximum?