Ultra smooth credit roll with zero jitter & judder!

yassera-s wrote on 11/19/2020, 6:05 AM

My finished project is set to 25P (To match my footages) and there is no problem when rendering out at 25P, except for the rolling credit as it suffers from slight jitter & judder. Not a lot but noticeable to my eye. If I render at 50P the credit roll smoothness improved a lot, yet not jitter-free. Rendering at 60P however resulted in super smooth credit roll with zero jitter & judder.

But is it ok to render the whole project at 60P considering that my footages are mostly 25P and few are 50P? What are the the consequences, pros and cons of doing so?

My video will be viewed in all social medias (YouTube, Vimeo, Facebook, etc) as well as in some PAL satellite channels.

Comments

Dexcon wrote on 11/19/2020, 6:09 AM

Without knowing what titler you are using, do the Property settings of the titler (e.g. resolution and frame rate if applicable for the titler) exactly match the 25P settings of the Project Properties?

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 19.0.3, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

Dell Inspiron 5310 EVO 13.3"

i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

yassera-s wrote on 11/19/2020, 6:16 AM

Without knowing what titler you are using, do the Property settings of the titler (e.g. resolution and frame rate if applicable for the titler) exactly match the 25P settings of the Project Properties?

I did not use any titler. I made the credit roll manually (PNG image then animated it with Event Pan/Crop)

Dexcon wrote on 11/19/2020, 6:29 AM

This nothing more than a thought as I've not used your approach to titling before ... R click the png event and disable resampling (assuming that the option is available).

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 19.0.3, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

Dell Inspiron 5310 EVO 13.3"

i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

yassera-s wrote on 11/19/2020, 7:11 AM

This nothing more than a thought as I've not used your approach to titling before ... R click the png event and disable resampling (assuming that the option is available).

Already tried that and resampling has no effect!

john_dennis wrote on 11/19/2020, 3:41 PM

If this credit roll is smooth enough for you, I'll tell you how I did it. If not, forget that I brought it up.

Hint:

Ideally, the rate of movement of your Pan/Crop window over your PNG image must be a whole integer multiple of the absolute number of frames.

yassera-s wrote on 11/20/2020, 9:46 AM

If this credit roll is smooth enough for you, I'll tell you how I did it. If not, forget that I brought it up.

Hint:

Ideally, the rate of movement of your Pan/Crop window over your PNG image must be a whole integer multiple of the absolute number of frames.

Thanks @john_dennis for the video, but that is what I am getting now when rendering at 50P. I was hoping to achieve the same smoothness when rendering at 60P. Is that possible?

Here is a test credit roll that are rendered at 60P:

Also, would you please explain in more details how to make sure about the movement rate of Pan/Crop window tois whole integer multiple of the absolute number of frames?

john_dennis wrote on 11/20/2020, 10:09 AM

@yassera-s

"...that is what I am getting now when rendering at 50P."

Yeah, but! My example was rendered at 25p.

I'll start gathering the screenshots and video for the example, now while I drink my coffee.

**** Warning **** **** Warning **** **** Warning **** **** Warning **** **** Warning **** **** Warning **** **** Warning ****

There's arithmetic involved.

3POINT wrote on 11/20/2020, 10:34 AM

@john_dennis Can you also make the text example "Action Flip" smooth at 25fps with your mathematics?

john_dennis wrote on 11/20/2020, 10:52 AM

@3POINT

We'll see when I finish the demo. My intuition is no.

yassera-s wrote on 11/20/2020, 11:40 AM

@yassera-s

"...that is what I am getting now when rendering at 50P."

Yeah, but! My example was rendered at 25p.

I'll start gathering the screenshots and video for the example, now while I drink my coffee.

**** Warning **** **** Warning **** **** Warning **** **** Warning **** **** Warning **** **** Warning **** **** Warning ****

There's arithmetic involved.


@john_dennis "Yeah, but! My example was rendered at 25p" Interesting! Waiting for the instructions.

yassera-s wrote on 11/20/2020, 11:42 AM

@3POINT

We'll see when I finish the demo. My intuition is no.

@john_dennis Looking forward ..

3POINT wrote on 11/20/2020, 12:07 PM

@3POINT

We'll see when I finish the demo. My intuition is no.

My intuition says also no due to the variable speed. Maybe a motion blur effect like RSMB could help.

yassera-s wrote on 11/20/2020, 1:39 PM

@3POINT

We'll see when I finish the demo. My intuition is no.

My intuition says also no due to the variable speed. Maybe a motion blur effect like RSMB could help.

@3POINT I tried RSMB and it it doesn't help! In fact, the credit roll looks better without RSMB!

3POINT wrote on 11/20/2020, 4:27 PM

Than the only smooth option I can imagine without mathematics, is to render the whole project to 50fps with disabled smart resampling. (60fps makes no sense because your video footage is only 25fps and will become worse)

john_dennis wrote on 11/20/2020, 6:32 PM

@yassera-s @3POINT

Here is the description that I promised.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ko9G4i_uLiclK_Cwf9IR9JfWX2hVlgtz/view?usp=sharing

Comments are welcome.

max8 wrote on 11/20/2020, 8:31 PM

Hi,

could it be that your monitor doesn't run at 50 Hz? That may be even the case when you're outputting 50 Hz with your videocard but the monitor isn't capable of displaying that natively and changes every input framerate to 60 Hz (despite indicating 50 Hz in the OSD!). Then everything exept 60 fps won't play smooth.

3POINT wrote on 11/20/2020, 11:11 PM

@john_dennis thanks for your efforts and instructions. Personally I always film in 50 fps and never use a credit roll because for me it's annoying to read a moving text. I prefer a static text and move my eyes.

walter-i. wrote on 11/21/2020, 2:51 AM

Here is the description that I promised.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ko9G4i_uLiclK_Cwf9IR9JfWX2hVlgtz/view?usp=sharing

Comments are welcome.


Great job, thank you - just a real @john_dennis ! - gives a good insight into how Vegas "thinks"

vkmast wrote on 11/21/2020, 5:06 AM

@john_dennis your pdf downloaded and saved (in case you need to remove it at some point). Thanks for your effort(s) here. 👍

FayFen wrote on 11/21/2020, 5:57 AM

I hardly did credit/text roll but when ever I needed I did it in Xp's movie maker and it came better then any NLE I used at the time.

yassera-s wrote on 11/21/2020, 8:46 AM

@yassera-s @3POINT

Here is the description that I promised.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ko9G4i_uLiclK_Cwf9IR9JfWX2hVlgtz/view?usp=sharing

Comments are welcome.

Great effort @john_dennis Highly appreciate it. I will give it a try and get back to you with feedback.

yassera-s wrote on 11/21/2020, 8:46 AM

Hi,

could it be that your monitor doesn't run at 50 Hz? That may be even the case when you're outputting 50 Hz with your videocard but the monitor isn't capable of displaying that natively and changes every input framerate to 60 Hz (despite indicating 50 Hz in the OSD!). Then everything exept 60 fps won't play smooth.


yassera-s wrote on 11/25/2020, 3:36 PM

@yassera-s @3POINT

Here is the description that I promised.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ko9G4i_uLiclK_Cwf9IR9JfWX2hVlgtz/view?usp=sharing

Comments are welcome.

Hi @john_dennis

So finally I had the time to try your methode. I followed your instructions step by step, making sure that all my numbers are integer numbers (Credit start at 0 frame and ends at 2000 frames) yet I still don't get a smooth credit roll when rendering at 25P.

Here is a screenshot:

Here is a link for my V18 project with the PNG file: http://www.mediafire.com/file/qh2bcyg2ozjtamn/Credit+Roll.zip/file

Would you please check it to see if I did something wrong?

john_dennis wrote on 11/25/2020, 4:44 PM

@yassera-s

I'll revisit the written instructions to make them clearer. Here are my observations:

1) Set the Pan Crop Preset to 16:9 Widescreen Aspect Ratio, not Default.

2) The Start key frame should be placed just before the first bit of white text appears in the Preview window.

3) The End key frame should be placed just after the last bit of white text or picture disappears from the Preview window.

3) Then do the calculations to select the place where the key frame is placed on the timeline based on the rate of movement per frame. I chose 3 pixels per frame in my example.

7522-(-512)=8034 pixels

8034/3 = 2678 = position of the last key frame

Preview the rendered file as Vegas Preview may be affected by machine speed.

My project file is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xK3K8R44-p9_kBc01CgnKgmjNDbNGXoB/view?usp=sharing

If you need it to be slower go down to 2 pixels per frame, faster go up to 4 pixels per frame.