Hi,

The OP has a valid point here. Old farts - as we are Grazie - we know how to get the proper levels, but again, always with some additional effort - that both could and should be automatic.

All Vegas novice users that I have helped fell repeatedly into this same levels trap. Everyone. I was also fooled in the beginning. Even later not by always remembering to correct the levels. Other pro software (Edius, FinalCut, Davinci) can do this. Why not Vegas? Just dissolving into black will cause illegal blacks, if you don't know how to properly work arount it when using video levels on the timeline. Not very pro...

To alter this Vegas behavior is probably a huge task and therefore will never happen... Would however be nice to finally get a comment from Magix also about this ever lasting pitfall, and self-repeating subject in the forums...

Cheers,

Christian

I cannot repro these results and vice versa this is right why I once switched to Vegas Pro - because it usually doesn't touch levels at all. If I render to AVC, CineForm, XDCAM, P2, HDV, etc. levels of rendered output are same as levels of the sources.

Hi,

The OP has a valid point here. Old farts - as we are Grazie - we know how to get the proper levels, but again, always with some additional effort - that both could and should be automatic.

Eh? All I asked if there was a question.

I cannot repro these results and vice versa this is right why I once switched to Vegas Pro - because it usually doesn't touch levels at all.

Same with me. I'm using *.jpgs, XAVC-S UHDp30 and FHDp50 footage and render to Sony AVC (FHD) and Intel HEVC UHDP30 and have no level change at all.

Please, who did not download the zipped file, did not unzip, did not test, did not read my PDF, did not compare the rendered videos ... please do not comment anything!

Ah! Just one more thing. I've been a professional editor since 2000, and I know all the video editing programs.

Ummm, you might want to remember you are asking your fellow forum members for a big favor by DEMANDING they read your lengthy post and carefully study the attached PDF.

"You catch more bees with honey than vinegar."

I politely suggest you comply with Grazie, and ask a SHORT SIMPLE QUESTION. Thanks!

I have managed to get around this problem by putting the LEVELS plug-in with the "Computer RGB to StudioRGB" preset in the Video Bus Track. But this is not a perfect solution, because it causes slow rendering, and the colors do not come out as good as if they were exported in another program.

But if I use RGB photos and YUV videos in the same project, I need to convert all YUV videos 16-235 to Computer RGB 0-255, wherever they appear on the timeline. For this I apply the LEVELS plugin with the "Studio RGB to Computer RGB" preset. It is not a practical way to work, but it has worked.

In others editor programs (such as the free and very good HITFILM EXPRESS 2017) this problem does not hapen. I can put together photos RGB and videos YUV in the same project, and renders without level distortion.

Actually there are video level decoding issues in HitFilm which are stated by the HitFilm crew. Despite in Vegas Pro where levels usually won't change, in HitFilm a level change may happen by the decoding process.

Basically Vegas leaves levels untouched from import to output. It is *your* responsibility to ensure levels are correct for the specific output. With the common DSLR and action cam sources you have full range input and you must adjust levels if you are rendering to a typical AVC output.

Hitfilm does alter levels on input for certain input formats. The adjustment is from studio to full range. This mostly happens on AVC input formats unless the AVC source is marked as full range. For intermediate formats and image sequences the levels are untouched in Hitfilm. Hitfilm always does a levels adjustment when exporting to AVC/MP4. The adjustment is from full range to studio.

Hitfilm is attempting to hide the whole levels confusion from the users. This may have consequences. In Vegas you have to know about levels, know what your output format requires, know what your preview device requires, know what your source media supplies and adjust as necessary. Full control but you have to know all the specifics.

Basically Vegas leaves levels untouched from import to output. It is *your* responsibility to ensure levels are correct for the specific output.

Well said Norman. And that's what I've learnt over the years, Vegas tries real hard to be an "honest broker". This philosophy may/does not suit everybody, and at times can be hair pullingly frustrating, but personally I wouldn't have it other. What I would like are Safe area overlays to appear on my External monitor!

Great thread, and thanks to the OP for posting.

"For intermediate formats and image sequences the levels are untouched in Hitfilm."

Yes, that's the way it is meant to work in HitFilm. But there are some (intermediate) formats where HitFilm - while ignoring the full range flag - also stretches 0-255 input levels though it shouldn't do.

Edit:

I once tested this with certain files in HitFilm and formerly could repro the HitFilm issue. I can't remember which type of video it was. Tried to repro again but now it works as expected. Don't know if the issue is fixed meanwhile or if I just don't use the right Media now but for now it seems like HitFilm is reading the range flags correctly.

---------

"but personally I wouldn't have it other."

Same for me. I very appreciate the way it works in Vegas Pro.

"What I would like are Safe area overlays to appear on my External monitor!"

Such a built-in feature would be great. Somewhere burried I have an FX Package which does something similar. I'll see if I could find it and could send it to you next days. Maybe it's usefull though it's a thing of enabling/disabling all the time.

Same for me. I very appreciate the way it works in Vegas Pro.

"What I would like are Safe area overlays to appear on my External monitor!"

Such a built-in feature would be great. Somewhere burried I have an FX Package which does something similar. I'll see if I could find it and could send it to you next days. Maybe it's usefull though it's a thing of enabling/disabling all the time.

Safe areas on External are available in DVDA. My plea was and always is more of a wish for Userability consistency over the two packages. I've never understood why this hasn't been the case for overlays. It's a simple request, but has for 10 years fallen on deaf ears.

Marco, thanks. I have other quibbles with Vegas Pro, but none such would make me jump ship.

BTW Marco, using your V2H daily when I need it.

Oops, when you said "safe areas" I meant something different, kind of "zebra" indicating high/low video levels. I should read more carefully.

Glad to see people still use Vegas2HandBrake though in the past I had no chance to update scripts and infos involved.

kind of "zebra" indicating high/low video levels.

Ooo, that sounds interesting. I use Scopes, but having an overlay, akin to real ZEBRA bars in my X300 would be something to experience.

NormanPCN, you said: "Basically Vegas leaves levels untouched from import to output."

Really? Try to export my project "RGB Exported with Vegas Pro 14.veg" as Sony AVC, and compare the source file "Sample RGB Full HD.png"with your exported MP4 file, in a player, as VLC Media Player, Media Player Classic, or other.
If in your exported MP4 file you can read the text "Foreground RGB 16, 16, 16" and "Foreground 235, 235, 235" in your TV or VLC Media Player, I will send to you a box with chocolates from Brazil.

Grazie,

What I'm trying to expose is the Vegas Pro problem is to stretch all levels, as if it were to convert everything in the timeline, from YUV 16-235 to RGB 0-255 at the time of export. No distinction! Vegas Pro "think" that everything in universe is YUV 16-235. The problem is that this destroys the levels of images that are already naturally RGB 0-255.

Please open my project "RGB Exported with Vegas Pro 14.veg" and render it to MP4 with the Sony AVC preset. Compare the source file with the rendered file. Make this comparison not in Vegas but in a player such as VLC, MPC, or other. Try to also see on your TV with a pen drive.

I want you to notice that in the source file there is text in the footer, on the left and on the right. (Foreground RGB 16, 16, 16; Foreground 235, 235, 235...) This text does not appear in the MP4 video rendered by Vegas, but appears in the MP4 video rendered by any other program.

Grazie, THIS IS THE PROBLEM! Since Sonic Foundry Vegas 3

Soon, MAGIX will release Vegas Pro 15, but I do not believe that this problem will be fixed. Not even! But I wish it were corrected.

Grazie, I await your comments after taking the test.

We are aware of all this but it is not Vegas who stretches the levels in the render process. It's the apps used after and often it depends on how the systems are configured, e.g. in some cases when you upload Vegas rendered video to YouTube you will not notice any level change after, dependend on which browser you use to watch the video and dependend on how you configured your grafic device.

First step to take to make Vegas Pro handle levels properly is to understand Vegas Pro does not touch the levels.

Please, guys, create a Vegas Pro Project 1920x1080 29,97 (or 25) progressive, and use this attached file on the timeline. Please, render it to MP4 with preset Sony AVC or MainConcept AVC. After, open the rendered MP4 video with any player (except Vegas Pro) and compare the original PNG with the rendered MP4.

You're going in circles. That proves the player stretches the levels, nothing else.

@vjsouza

So, you now have explanations from some very experienced Vegas users including a forum moderator. Is it just possible that you are wrong and they are right? maybe?

Here is another example I used many times in the past. The base of it was a PNG rendered from Vegas Pro to AVC/MP4 then uploaded to YouTube. It requires your grafic card to be set to display data levels. Then open this link with different browsers:

https://youtu.be/kcydmlK9MTg

In Chrome I see just black and white which means the browser's player stretches the levels provided by Vegas Pro.

In both Internet Explorer 11 and Edge I still see the text information which means the browser's player passes the levels 1:1 just like it is rendered by Vegas Pro and what exactly equals the PNG source levels.

If I open the MP4 file with VLC player I just see black and white - stretched levels.
If I open same MP4 file with the Windows 10 core video app (Film&TV) or with Windows Media Player I see the text information - base levels.

It always depends on how the systems used after the Vegas Pro output are set.

I suspect that if Vegas downranged RGB to 601/709, honored VUI flags, left everything else alone, and previewed at display levels, which is what the OP is really asking for (in a roundabout way) there would be even more confusion and complaints, because the possibility of errors and user misapplication will have been raised by yet another power of ^2. At least that.

Here is my tongue-in-cheek analysis of this can-o'-worms from a different perspective a couple of years back. https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/pc-to-tv-levels-a-comedy-of-errors--107325/

Folks who either overthink or underthink this stuff will never be satisfied, so there is a compelling case for the least invasive option and good education for would-be production types.

I would truly support a soccer-mom approach to levels in Movie Studio but leave my Vegas Pro alone!

It seems natural to complain that Vegas previews everything in RGB colorspace, even 601/709 source, but never, ever let that fool you into believing that native levels are being converted by Vegas into something else. That, for the less-attuned, is exactly what Vegas is NOT doing!

And for some valid reasons, AFAIAC.

Wrap your brain around the fact that Vegas is displaying source levels faithfully, and the PLAYER is honoring a 601/709 flag and expanding to playback (PC) levels. Following the same logic Marco presents, the converse of that statement cannot be true.