set,

Yes, the biggest challenge remains to correct the colorspace with the least redundancy or impact on bit depth.

"You catch more bees with honey than vinegar."

The same is true of flies, too, but beer is best by far. No flying insect can resist the smell of fermentation.

Here is another example I used many times in the past. The base of it was a PNG rendered from Vegas Pro to AVC/MP4 then uploaded to YouTube. It requires your grafic card to be set to display data levels. Then open this link with different browsers:

https://youtu.be/kcydmlK9MTg

In Chrome I see just black and white which means the browser's player stretches the levels provided by Vegas Pro.

In both Internet Explorer 11 and Edge I still see the text information which means the browser's player passes the levels 1:1 just like it is rendered by Vegas Pro and what exactly equals the PNG source levels.

If I open the MP4 file with VLC player I just see black and white - stretched levels.
If I open same MP4 file with the Windows 10 core video app (Film&TV) or with Windows Media Player I see the text information - base levels.

It always depends on how the systems used after the Vegas Pro output are set.

Did anyone else download Marco's test video and see how it looks in different browsers and media players?

I tried to replicate what you said Marco and got different results.
I confess to not being an expert at all on this topic, but have listened and followed all the advice from the senior members on this forum.

I could not see the hidden text in any web browser or media player on my computer.
The only place I could see the text that says "Hidden Black & Hidden White" was in Vegas Pro 14 and Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 14.

Playing YT video in Chrome, IE, Edge and Firefox was the same - no text showing.
Playing downloaded video in Windows Media Player, Windows Films & TV, Cyberlink PowerDVD, Quicktime and Realplayer did not show text.

I also tried Photoshop and no text displays - I always assumed that Photoshop would use full range.

I am on Windows 10 version 1703, build 15063.483
I use an Nvidia GTX570 and have Dynamic Range set to Full (0-255)
I used the inbuilt Windows Colour Calibration tool to calibrate my monitors.

I feel like I just opened a can of worms.

Regards
Derek

There may be many reasons why this completely differs from system to system and this is exactly what I try to demo.

Btw - no need to download. Just watch on YouTube, full screen prefered.

Did anyone else download Marco's test video and see how it looks in different browsers and media players?

Yes, I did. Most PC players and browsers are limited to 16-235. So there is no wonder that you do not see the 'hidden' text. However, if you'r using a player that supports the full range - for example Kodi or stand alone players for the (UHD)TV , you will see this correct frame

as in Vegas.

Marco - how do I download the file from YouTube please?

My graphics are set to show full range but I only get B&W with Firefox, IE and Edge. I'd like to try it with my players away from the internet.

However, if you'r using a player that supports the full range - for example Kodi or stand alone players for the (UHD)TV , you will see this correct frame

I just did a test and played Marco's video on my Samsung UHD 4K TV - video and text displays beautifully!

Eric, there are 100's of different YT downloaders/apps.
Try this one:
https://www.winxdvd.com/youtube-downloader/

If you download that YouTube file it is no more the Vegas output, but the YouTube encoding. Though the results probably won't differ, you never could be sure if not YouTube's encoder added something influencing the result. I could offer the Vegas render file for download bit later.

Don't know if YouTube still detours to different players (Flash/HTML5) dependend on frame sizes and systems used on the viewers side. If this still is the case and your browsers use FlashPlayer (instead of HTML5) this would be one reason you won't see the levels like Vegas Pro output them.

Here's the file (need to unzip first): Levels Test

Thanks Derek and Marco.

Meantime I made my own png with Black half 0, and White half 255. I placed on the black some letters at 10, and on white some letters at 245. I imported the png into MS14 and exported as m2ts and mp4. Playing the files in MPC-HC the results were as expected:-

With my Graphics set on Video Limited range - no letters were visible.

With my Graphics set on Video Full range - the letters appeared.

But of course this doesn't tell us how Vegas Pro or MS handles video input. My Canon AVCHD camera produces files which are YUV Color Space, Chroma subsampling 4:2:0, 8 bits depth. How can I find out if these are full 0-255 or 16-235?

Proofing for input levels isn't that easy. You would need to know how exactly your camera works then it is likely you would see in 8 bit projects Vegas Pro/Movie Studio usually does not affect input levels.

You might take a look into this thread to see what Nick collected about camera recording levels.

Thanks for the file Marco, which gives the same results as my own.

I also switched my Graphics properties for Video to 'Application Settings' which gives my pc's players control over the range and I found MPC-HC, VLC, WMP, QTP, Windows Films & TV and Firefox all did not show the letter so were applying 16-235. When I tried IE browser it opened MPC-HC to play the file. Possibly some of the players had a setting where you could alter the range. But as Derek suggested it's a can of worms.

I did discover how to get Cyberlink PowerDVD 16 to display full levels.
Both Marco's YT video and source video from zip file display correctly now when viewed on my PC using PowerDVD16.

I pressed cog for settings, then went to "Video, Audio, Subtitles" / Video Enhancements / Advanced Enhancement and turned on Video - this activates 3 more settings: True Theater HD, True Theater Lighting and True Theater Colour.

Normally I keep this setting off, because it distorts the colour of DVDs, however I will now remember to turn this on when viewing high dynamic range video.

I still can't get any web browser to display full range, even though I have set the Nvidia control panel to 0-255. I made sure to play at 720p and use HTML player. Other users on the Internet report that changing this setting normally makes some web browsers display full range on YT and Vimeo. There could be something to do with the age of my graphics card and driver combo. It doesn't bother me though, because I am on a 2011 system and it's time to build a new computer.

You're going in circles. That proves the player stretches the levels, nothing else.

No. All players are correct! Try to export to MP4 my PNG with other NLE encoders and compare. You will be surprised. I assure you!

I look at your zip files, especially analyzing the HitFilm Express AVC output and TMPEG Mastering Works 6 output inside Vegas Pro timeline so I can see it on the Video Scopes, compared with your PNG.

As I see it, HitFilm Express AVC and TMPEG Mastering Works 6 is scaling 0-255 to 16-235.

And here's your Gifts.MTS video inside Vegas Pro, compared with Mastering Works and HF2017. So, do I have to stretch the MTS files range to 0-255 ?

NO, I don't think so. I just need to make sure in Video scopes > Waveform that those colors are INSIDE 0-100% RANGE and NOT filling up the RGB Parade or Histogram, to 0-255 RANGE.

"All players are correct!"

Just a little hint: Do you know what the color range flag of the MP4 files does?

"All players are correct!"

Just a little hint: Do you know what the color range flag of the MP4 files does?

The OP is obviously a GIGO-Denier.

Good to note that when th OP joined the forum in 2016, Grazie, Marco, Norman, set, and I already had 25+ years of collective experience in this same millieu, and a healthy level of agreement.

@Musicvid:GIGO-Denier.

What's that? Garbage ..... But the Denier bit? 😕

We have holocaust-deniers, why not gigo - deniers as well?

Stuff happens. As in misflagging yuvj420p as yuv420p and sending it to a "perfect player?"

Those are the MP4 flags Marco was referring to.

With fully 5 billion phones and devices shooting so-called "fullrange yuv," and hit-or-miss recognition of yuvj420 by players and converters alike, it's little wonder that the garish clipped look is actually preferred by the unwashed masses.

​@Grazie

Loved your comments on the Shirley thread!

Ah, righto, got it.

"All players are correct!"

Just a little hint: Do you know what the color range flag of the MP4 files does?

The OP is obviously a GIGO-Denier.

Good to note that when th OP joined the forum in 2016, Grazie, Marco, Norman, set, and I already had 25+ years of collective experience in this same millieu, and a healthy level of agreement.

Musicvid, Musicvid, the fact that I joined the forum in 2016, does not mean that I started editing videos in 2016. I have already edited in programs like AVID, Edius, Adobe Premiere ... I have been a video professional since 1998.

If you can not explain why Vegas Pro handles RGB files different than other programs, this is understandable. But you have no right to make personal offenses to me. You do not know me.

Why do I keep using Vegas Pro, instead of other programs, this is my business. I paid for the license, and I have the right to expose the program errors on the forum of the company that sells the program.

I've provided enough evidence that Vegas Pro handles RGB files differently from all other programs. The evidence speaks for itself. If the evidence does not convince, I can not do anything else. If evidences could convince everyone, there not would be doctors that smoke!

It would be great if this forum had a moderator.

I wish you all a good day!