Here are the two types of video i am needing rendered.

1. Analog VHS and Hi 8 tapes. (Transferred through a Lord Smurf approved system)

2. Digital video from a Canon Vixia HF10.

I am not planning on burning these to DVD. I simply want sensible file sizes that look good so i can put the rendered videos on the cloud for my adult kids to have access to.

What Vegas Render Settings from the pull down render menu do y’all suggest for the two options? Extra tweaks?

So what that says to me, you need to produce the highest quality progressive encodes, because the cloud will produce low quality progressive video if you were to upload interlaced, you also don't want to let vegas do the conversion it will also do a lower quality job

Basically you want to convert your NTSC to 60fps video, or your PAL to 50fps, you won't lose any fluidity of your original interlaced video nor detail. You use QTGMC for that. You sound like you just want to get the job done, not that interested in perfection, so I'd recommend Staxrip as it's automated and does a reasonable job with the default QTGMC preset, it includes denoising, just have to tick the field box, change encoding settings to whatever you would prefer, probably x264 in an mp4 container rather than default of x265 MKV.

https://github.com/staxrip/staxrip

It's up to you if you want to take this step, i'm not confident you do. if you're happy to use conventional destructive methods of de-interlacing there's people here to help with that

You seem to be advocating Bobbing of interlaced footage, which adds measurable shadow noise. I don't recommend it for analog video source for obvious reasons. I prefer to stick with the basics when helping new users...

And FWIW, Vegas Smart Adaptive Deinterlace beats QTGMC in head-to-head combing artifact tests, hands down.

@Musicvid Have a look at the comparisons from around 1m30s. It's VHS footage, of the deinterlacers shown there QTGMC jumps out as looking much better. It is cheating a little I guess in having a built in denoiser which could cause problems in other samples but looks good here to my eyes.

On a CRT monitor? Thanks for the chuckle, Todd. I'll include QTGMC and Vegas Smart Deinterlace in a quantified test coming soon, time permitting...

In the meantime, these visual tests may interest you. Unfortunately, I purposely left out QTGMC due to impressions gained from previous testing. It does, however, show what Vegas Smart Adaptive Deinterlace is capable of doing.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/some-tests-of-smart-adaptive-deinterlacer--132790/

My advice to the OP to avoid the fluff (wrt Bobbing) and stick with the basics remains, unconditionally. We have a lot of respect here for those rare individuals who bother to devise and share their own tests, rather than searching Google for "evidence."

So what that says to me, you need to produce the highest quality progressive encodes, because the cloud will produce low quality progressive video if you were to upload interlaced,

Surely if you upload to a cloud based service it will simply store the file you upload as it is? When family download it they will get the original file. It's only when you upload to YouTube etc for download streaming that files get converted and quality is potentially downgraded?

@EricLNZ Yes he could have meant that, Also depends on how the cloud drive is set up. With google one of the options are for videos and pictures to go to Google photos and re-encoded, but if that option is not set Google still re-encodes the file to allow instant playback, but they're defined as preview, maybe only 720P but keep originals.

If his intention was actual cloud storage, not cloud streaming he could stay interlaced, but then someone in the future is possibly not going to handle the interlaced to progressive transform properly. You can make certain the full temporal resolution of(59.94/50fps) remains even if someone were to upload to a future youtube in 20 years time using those cloud files.

It's definitely what I plan to do in future with some recently surfaced SVHS home videos from a relative... once I find an actual SVHS machine

We will be happy to help you, once we know what kind of "VHS, Hi8, and digital" formats you are working with. PAL, NTSC, 4:3, Widescreen, Interlaced, Progressive, eh?

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

Many thanks for your reply. I will try and answer as best i can with my limited knowledge of Video production.

Its all shot here in the USA, so i think that means its NTSC. Some of these VHS tapes were on a 1980's camcorder. Again, i assume that means 4:3. Years later santa brought me a Hi8 analog camcorder (roughly 2001). I am assuming its also 4:3. Pretty sure none of my analog tapes are widescreen.

As for if the analog tapes are interlaced or Progressive, man i have no idea. How can i find out?

The Digital video i shot on my Canon Vixia HF10 i assume to be widescreen, NTSC. Again, no idea on Progressive or Interlaced. Once i know how to find that out i can post the answers.

So what that says to me, you need to produce the highest quality progressive encodes, because the cloud will produce low quality progressive video if you were to upload interlaced,

Surely if you upload to a cloud based service it will simply store the file you upload as it is? When family download it they will get the original file. It's only when you upload to YouTube etc for download streaming that files get converted and quality is potentially downgraded?

Well, that is EXACTLY what i am hoping. That its just a file to cloud transfer without any conversion. I am using Idrive for my cloud storage. They had the most storage for the least amount of money. I will check with their tech support to find out if their system does any unwanted compression. I never thought about a cloud based storage service mucking with my files. I just assumed (yeah, i know) that it was just like moving it to another hard drive.

@EricLNZ Yes he could have meant that, Also depends on how the cloud drive is set up. With google one of the options are for videos and pictures to go to Google photos and re-encoded, but if that option is not set Google still re-encodes the file to allow instant playback, but they're defined as preview, maybe only 720P but keep originals.

If his intention was actual cloud storage, not cloud streaming he could stay interlaced, but then someone in the future is possibly not going to handle the interlaced to progressive transform properly. You can make certain the full temporal resolution of(59.94/50fps) remains even if someone were to upload to a future youtube in 20 years time using those cloud files.

It's definitely what I plan to do in future with some recently surfaced SVHS home videos from a relative... once I find an actual SVHS machine

I just spoke with Idrive support. They tell me that they do no further compression to the files. They do 're encode' in order to get it encrypted (for security) but if i were to Xfr a video to Idrive and pull it back down that it is exactly the same as the original file i transferred. This is what tech support told me. I suppose the only way to know for sure is to test it with HD video to see if the Xfr up to the cloud and back down again causes the file to look different than the original file and if its exactly the same size.

We will be happy to help you, once we know what kind of "VHS, Hi8, and digital" formats you are working with. PAL, NTSC, 4:3, Widescreen, Interlaced, Progressive, eh?

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

 

Many thanks for your reply. I will try and answer as best i can with my limited knowledge of Video production.

Its all shot here in the USA, so i think that means its NTSC. Some of these VHS tapes were on a 1980's camcorder. Again, i assume that means 4:3. Years later santa brought me a Hi8 analog camcorder (roughly 2001). I am assuming its also 4:3. Pretty sure none of my analog tapes are widescreen.

As for if the analog tapes are interlaced or Progressive, man i have no idea. How can i find out?

The Digital video i shot on my Canon Vixia HF10 i assume to be widescreen, NTSC. Again, no idea on Progressive or Interlaced. Once i know how to find that out i can post the answers.

Thank You!

Of course we know absolutely nothing about what a "Lord Smurf" video transfer system is or does. When you get the transfers, kindly provide the MediaInfo and Vegas File Properties as instructed in the link you were provided. Then, you will render to Magix AVC Progressive format, customizing the render template to match the captured files' Display Aspect Resolution, which is never apparent to new users (that's why we ask for this stuff....).

Again, assuming your Vixia footage is FHD, Just upload it to your cloud service and let people enjoy it. Again, you have provided no MediaInfo or Vegas File properties. These are required if you need further support.

Due to increased background noise that always happens this time of year, I'm bowing out of the discussion.

Best of luck.

We will be happy to help you, once we know what kind of "VHS, Hi8, and digital" formats you are working with. PAL, NTSC, 4:3, Widescreen, Interlaced, Progressive, eh?

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

 

Many thanks for your reply. I will try and answer as best i can with my limited knowledge of Video production.

Its all shot here in the USA, so i think that means its NTSC. Some of these VHS tapes were on a 1980's camcorder. Again, i assume that means 4:3. Years later santa brought me a Hi8 analog camcorder (roughly 2001). I am assuming its also 4:3. Pretty sure none of my analog tapes are widescreen.

As for if the analog tapes are interlaced or Progressive, man i have no idea. How can i find out?

The Digital video i shot on my Canon Vixia HF10 i assume to be widescreen, NTSC. Again, no idea on Progressive or Interlaced. Once i know how to find that out i can post the answers.

Thank You!

Of course we know absolutely nothing about what a "Lord Smurf" video transfer system is or does. When you get the transfers, kindly provide the MediaInfo and Vegas File Properties as instructed in the link you were provided. Then, you will render to Magix AVC Progressive format, customizing the render template to match the captured files' Display Aspect Resolution, which is never apparent to new users (that's why we ask for this stuff....).

Again, assuming your Vixia footage is FHD, Just upload it to your cloud service and let people enjoy it. Again, you have provided no MediaInfo or Vegas File properties. These are required if you need further support.

Due to increased background noise that always happens this time of year, I'm bowing out of the discussion.

Best of luck.

LordSmurf is this fellow on the DigitalFAQ forums (another DV forum). He's the defacto guru of all things Analog to Digital transfers. He and that community have tried, over the years, just about every DV transfer product thats ever been made. He spec'd me a system that i am using. He gets in older gear that was great at the time, checks it out, repairs it and then resells it. He hooked me up with this system:

Datavideo TBC-1000

Pinnacle USB-510 digital interface

Transfer from VHS or Hi 8 Camera into my Win 7 machine (because of Pinnacle drivers) into software called Virtualdub using the Lagrath compression plug in. Years and years ago i had a Canopus ADV100 (something like that) that the community at DigitalFAQ called junk.

From there i copy the file on to a SSD External drive, copy to my Win 10 system and use Vegas 12 to edit (Because i cant get vegas 18 to play nice at all, Crashpalloza).

Thanks again for all the advice and input on these settings. I shall follow them. I will get the mediainfo and File Properties tonight while at my studio, screen shot them and share them here..... tomorrow.

Your comment on "Background noise this time of year" does not make much sense to me.

Did a transfer from an old vhs tape I found in box in my garage a while back. Fired up a Panasonic player, cleaned the head, came out s-video into an ADVC-100 and from there into a firewire card capturing with Vegas 18 which had just come out at the time. Ntsc captured as 720x480 4:3 avi 4:1:1 interlaced with 48k stereo pcm audio. After a light grading and sharpening in Vegas I rendered it as 720x480p .9091 aspect using Sony AVC with gpu enabled. Use that encoder out of habit with potential dvd material but Magix AVC would probably be fine too. Think it looks better than playing the tape.
https://vimeo.com/451726661

Your comment on "Background noise this time of year" does not make much sense to me.

It will.

Did a transfer from an old vhs tape I found in box in my garage a while back. Fired up a Panasonic player, cleaned the head, came out s-video into an AVDC-100 and from there into a firewire card capturing with Vegas 18 which had just come out at the time. Ntsc captured as 720x480 4:3 avi 4:1:1 interlaced with 48k stereo pcm audio. After a light grading and sharpening in Vegas I rendered it as 720x480p .9091 aspect using Sony AVC with gpu enabled. Use that encoder out of habit with potential dvd material but Magix AVC would probably be fine too. Think it looks better than playing the tape.
https://vimeo.com/451726661

Truth be told i would have kept using my Canopus 100 had it not died on me. But when i joined the DVfaq forum i mentioned above they convinced me that there were better ways. So far i have been really happy with the capture from my rig. Sadly i have NO way of comparing it to the Canopus machine. I was also talked out of using the Vegas capture program (cant recall why). Those blokes insisted Virtualdub (which is FREE) is a superior capture software to Vegas. Right now i got work-flow-mojo happening between my two systems. While it is a bit of a pain to Xfr from machine to machine...it does free up my Win 10/ Vegas rig to edit and render while my other system is capturing video. So....there's that.

Ntsc captured as 720x480 4:3 avi 4:1:1 interlaced with 48k stereo pcm audio. After a light grading and sharpening in Vegas I rendered it as 720x480p .9091 aspect using Sony AVC with gpu enabled. Use that encoder out of habit with potential dvd material but Magix AVC would probably be fine too. Think it looks better than playing the tape.
https://vimeo.com/451726661

@Howard-Vigorita You uploaded in 29.97fps progressive NTSC to Vimeo, and this is an example of a bad frame that would have looked fine with QTGMC 59.94 progressive conversion.

I purposely left out QTGMC due to impressions gained from previous testing.

One word: Messy

So, here are my settings from a clip i captured over the weekend. It was a VHS tape transferred through the Xfr Rig as described above.

These were the settings that were requested.

MEDIA INFO:  General
Complete name                            : H:\ATKM Main\ATKM in Dyersberg.avi
Format                                   : AVI
Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
Format profile                           : OpenDML
File size                                : 37.1 GiB
Duration                                 : 1 h 51 min
Overall bit rate                         : 47.5 Mb/s

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : Lagarith
Codec ID                                 : LAGS
Duration                                 : 1 h 51 min
Bit rate                                 : 46.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 3:2
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 4.440
Stream size                              : 35.9 GiB (97%)

Audio
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Codec ID                                 : 1
Duration                                 : 1 h 51 min
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 1.20 GiB (3%)
Alignment                                : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration                     : 40  ms (1.20 video frame)

Vegas Info:   General
  Name: ATKM in Dyersberg.avi
  Folder: H:\ATKM Main\Atkm Dyersberg
  Type: Video for Windows
  Size: 38.89 GB (39,822,840,462 bytes)
  Created: Monday, January 10, 2022, 6:53:20 PM
  Modified: Tuesday, January 4, 2022, 7:40:09 PM
  Accessed: Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 8:56:00 PM
  Attributes: Archive

Streams
  Video: 01:51:41.728, 29.970 fps, 720x480x16, Lagarith Lossless Codec
  Audio: 01:51:41.705, 48,000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo, Uncompressed

ACID information
  ACID chunk: no
  Stretch chunk: no
  Stretch list: no
  Stretch info2: no
  Beat markers: no
  Detected beats: no

Other metadata
  Regions/markers: no
  Command markers: no

Media manager
  Media tags: no

Plug-In
  Name: aviplug.dll
  Folder: C:\Program Files\Sony\Vegas Pro 12.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\aviplug
  Format: Video for Windows
  Version: Version 12.0 (Build 770) 64-bit
  Company: Sony Creative Software Inc.

Hopefully i have answered all the questions and you guys can give me a, hopefully, easy answer to which Render setting i should use.

Thanks again for all your input!

@Denicio

It looks as if the capture is already progressive. Here is a Canopus ACEDVIO capture done in Vegas 4.0.

General
Complete name                            : \\P8z77\San Francisco - Oakland Earthquake - Clip 001.avi
Format                                   : AVI
Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
Commercial name                          : DVCPRO
Format profile                           : OpenDML
File size                                : 12.1 GiB
Duration                                 : 57 min 5 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Constant
Overall bit rate                         : 30.4 Mb/s
TAPE                                     : San Francisco - Oakland Earthquake
TCOD                                     : 667333
TCDO                                     : 34258891333
VMAJ                                     : 4
VMIN                                     : 0
STAT                                     : 102574 98 3.429271 1
DTIM                                     : 0 0

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : DV
Commercial name                          : DVCPRO
Codec ID                                 : dvsd
Codec ID/Hint                            : Sony
Duration                                 : 57 min 5 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 24.4 Mb/s
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Original frame rate                      : 29.970 (29970/1000) FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:1:1
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Bottom Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 2.357
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00;02
Time code source                         : Subcode time code
Stream size                              : 11.5 GiB (95%)

Audio
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Codec ID                                 : 1
Duration                                 : 57 min 5 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 627 MiB (5%)
Alignment                                : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration                     : 267  ms (8.00 video frames)
Interleave, preload duration             : 266  ms

Could you post a short sample, a few hundred MB, on a cloud share like Google Drive, Dropbox, etc. and share the link on the forum?

Could you post a short sample, a few hundred MB, on a cloud share like Google Drive, Dropbox, etc. and share the link on the forum?

+1

Your source is not 720x480 3:2 DAR (it is 4:3 DAR), so it may have been adulterated during capture, or more likely, missing and incorrect metadata that has merely defaulted (very common with Lagarith). I see a few other red flags in your file properties that I won't go into here.

My only advice is to upload a 5 sec. AVI capture for each source (VHS and HI8) to Drive or Dropbox, using the same settings you reported. Vegas won't unbake the cake, but maybe there is a workaround for the DAR issue. In my experience, Lagarith metadata is buggy in many encoders, and I may have to work with the media level parameters, but no predictions whatsoever. The critical metadata that is obviously missing from the MediaInfo are PAR and Interlace status. The file size concerns me; I certainly hope that the encoder used is 64-bit.

If you want to play with it on your own, you could start with a custom Sony AVC template that matches your source "properties," but again no promises.

Your source is not 720x480 3:2 DAR (it is 4:3 DAR), so it may have been adulterated during capture, or more likely, missing and incorrect metadata that has merely defaulted (very common with Lagarith). I see a few other red flags in your file properties that I won't go into here.

My only advice is to upload a 5 sec. AVI capture for each source (VHS and HI8) to Drive or Dropbox, using the same settings you reported. Vegas won't unbake the cake, but maybe there is a workaround for the DAR issue. In my experience, Lagarith metadata is buggy in many encoders, and I may have to work with the media level parameters, but no predictions whatsoever. The critical metadata that is obviously missing from the MediaInfo are PAR and Interlace status.

If you want to play with it on your own, you could start with a custom Sony AVC template that matches your source "properties," but again no promises.

Welp, much of what you discussed is already going way over my head. This is one of the main reasons i stopped inching towards video production (and moving out of music production). I was too old and too lazy to do the learning curve that clearly you fine folks have mastered.

I had no idea i had DAR issues (is there a cream or ointment for that? me laughing). Has Lagrath caused me to go backwards? So many questions running through my mind. I spent a lot of $$ on this Xfr rig and at the advice of those on that forum i am doing what i believed to be the best possible transfer. This TBC unit was quite expensive. Did i waste my money? Truth be told it is a PITA to have to transfer into a very old Win 7 system (again the Pinnacle drivers are not Win 10 friendly as its old Technology).

I am at a loss as to what to do now. I have a stack of at least 50 VHS family tapes and easily 75 Hi 8 Analog tapes needing to be transferred, edited, rendered and put on the cloud. I am now feeling like i am in a feedback loop of Video-Transfer-Ignorance and am just spiraling round and round making no progress. Sigh, just sigh. Here i thought i had THE mondo xfr rig.

MAYBE i should back up and punt? What are you folks using to transfer old VHS and Hi 8 into Vegas with that ticks all the boxes and gives me good looking transfers. Not sure how much more $$ i want to throw at this but i AM all ears.

I freely admit, my old Canopus ADVC100 was set and forget. Too bad they were not built to last.

So, right now at this very moment....i am fearful of moving forward with my mountain of transfers.

What do YOU and other members suggest i do?

Sincerely,

Discouraged in Memphis (aka Dennis)

What do YOU and other members suggest i do?

Upload some samples. I do not recommend recapturing old tapes or investing in any new equipment. Until you hear back from @john_dennis or me, be of still mind and peaceful spirit, and repeat the following mantra as needed:

"There is more than one way to do it... There is more than one way to do it..."

@Denicio

It looks as if the capture is already progressive. Here is a Canopus ACEDVIO capture done in Vegas 4.0.

General
Complete name                            : \\P8z77\San Francisco - Oakland Earthquake - Clip 001.avi
Format                                   : AVI
Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
Commercial name                          : DVCPRO
Format profile                           : OpenDML
File size                                : 12.1 GiB
Duration                                 : 57 min 5 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Constant
Overall bit rate                         : 30.4 Mb/s
TAPE                                     : San Francisco - Oakland Earthquake
TCOD                                     : 667333
TCDO                                     : 34258891333
VMAJ                                     : 4
VMIN                                     : 0
STAT                                     : 102574 98 3.429271 1
DTIM                                     : 0 0

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : DV
Commercial name                          : DVCPRO
Codec ID                                 : dvsd
Codec ID/Hint                            : Sony
Duration                                 : 57 min 5 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 24.4 Mb/s
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Original frame rate                      : 29.970 (29970/1000) FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:1:1
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Bottom Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 2.357
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00;02
Time code source                         : Subcode time code
Stream size                              : 11.5 GiB (95%)

Audio
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Codec ID                                 : 1
Duration                                 : 57 min 5 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 627 MiB (5%)
Alignment                                : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration                     : 267  ms (8.00 video frames)
Interleave, preload duration             : 266  ms

Could you post a short sample, a few hundred MB, on a cloud share like Google Drive, Dropbox, etc. and share the link on the forum?

John,

Sure, i could do the VHS pretty easily as the rig is set up to do VHS Xfr. For Hi8, i'd have to do some switching of things. You just want a few hundred MB of video from my Xfr rig, right? Prior to importing into Vegas, correct?

Pardon my ignorance on this, but what will this help you ascertain?

Lastly, i cant thank you fellers enough for assisting this overfed long haired leaping gnome with his video blues.

Here i was thinking i'd post this question and you'd say "Pull down menu, option #3, with these two settings". Just shows you how much i really DONT know about video. More than anything its the ignorance on such things that frustrate me to no end. What can i say? I just want to push a button and make it do its thing perfectly while i sit back and enjoy some red wine~

Thanks again,

Dennis in Memphis