@Denicio 10 seconds of each is plenty.

Pardon my ignorance on this, but what will this help you ascertain?

The critical file properties that are obviously being unreported and misreported by the Lagarith metadata.

What other encoders are available to you in VDub with your capture setup?

@Denicio 10 seconds of each is plenty.

Pardon my ignorance on this, but what will this help you ascertain?

The critical file properties that are obviously being unreported and misreported by the Lagarith metadata.

 

So then, are you implying i should import these short clips into Virtualdub WITHOUT using Lagarith as the codec? The default Virtual Dub codec?

Do you want me to do both? Default and with Lagarith?

Sorry, my brain requires super nerdy specifics. Thats just how it works. Trust me, it makes my life infinitely more difficult.

 

What other encoders are available to you in VDub with your capture setup?

 

A good question that i dont have an answer for (at the moment). Are there 'obvious' ones i should look for?

Magnavox set-top VHS->DVD Recorder. To me, the files just look better, owing to hardware noise reduction. Of course, there are some minor aspect differences, and the 4:1:0 output is sometimes less than ideal, but it's good enough, considering what we have to work with.

Do you worry about it being a lossless format?

Do you fret about TBC?

(am i worrying about nothing? I'm not trying to make a hollywood movie here)

Do you happen to have the model number of the Magnavox VHS to DVD recorder?

And lastly, how do you get the Hi8 to the DVD thru the Magnavox? Is there a pass through?

And lastly, how do you get the Hi8 to the DVD thru the Magnavox? Is there a pass through?

Video8 and Hi8 are analog formats. I connect the analog camera output to the RCA inputs on the front panel of the recorder.

Do you worry about it being a lossless format?

With analog 4:1:1 source? No.

My grandfather's favorite expression was, "You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear."

Do you fret about TBC?

Not unless I need it, in which case I usually just let it go.

Do you happen to have the model number of the Magnavox VHS to DVD recorder?

I got it at Goodwill.

I looked up your Pinnacle capture device and it says it outputs DV through its own software. That is what you want.

A firewire out to VDub capture, is at the least redundant, and at worst is destructive, depending on the capture settings used, which in this case "appear" to be 3:2 at 1.0 PAR (wrong).

In addition to the already promised files, do an encode that way, and if they look good, upload a couple of DV samples as well. That one step alone "may" eliminate 90% of this extrapolated discussion.

I looked up your Pinnacle capture device and it says it outputs DV through its own software. That is what you want.

A firewire out to VDub capture, is at the least redundant, and at worst is destructive, depending on the capture settings used, which in this case "appear" to be 3:2 at 1.0 PAR (wrong).

In addition to the already promised files, do an encode that way, and if they look good, upload a couple of DV samples as well. That one step alone "may" eliminate 90% of this convoluted discussion.

I think i am following half of what you are saying here. Let me describe in detail (again, my brain) how my rig is set up (HW & SW).

VHS out (not using Svideo, at the moment as my player with Svideo died). Sending that INTO the Datavideo TBC-1000. Out of the TBC-1000 into the Pinnacle 510 analog inputs. From there, it goes to the computer via USB as its a USB capture device. Using a USB port on the back that connects directly to the MB. Its 'considered' by some that using a USB jack on the front of the case is the same as a hub and is strongly discouraged. Thats the Hardware set up.

When i fire up my Win7 machine i launch this program that is LITERALLY called "Crossbar Thing" (exact name).It allows me to choose which input on the Pinnacle 510. I set the input in Crossbar and then open Virtualdub. Inside VD i choose Lagraith compression and do the Transfer. No more, no less. Thats the entire workflow. This is supposed to give me a lossless compression transfer and fix any possible TBC.

I have never downloaded any official Pinnacle software as i was never encouraged to do so by those in the DVfaq forum. Is it possible i overlooked/missed this? Remember, i am an idiot when it comes to this video stuff and i dont always know the questions that need to be asked.

ALL of this to say that there is no 'firewire out' in either of my computers. So firewire is not a factor. This card, to my knowledge, does not even have a firewire plug (i could be wrong on this).

The system this way, without Pinnacle software, does work in the basic sense of the word 'work'. Is it the best? I've no idea. There is a real chance i have left off a step...possibly a big one. I dont know.

I'll say it again....a few years ago i had Sony Vegas capturing video from Analog sources from a Canopus ADVC-100. It was going directly into Vegas's capture utility. It worked. I got busy working on a couple of albums that took a lot of time, lost interest in archiving video, years passed and my ADVC 100 died. Now that i have closed the commercial side of the studio and my kids are grown and gone....i have rededicated myself to digitally archiving ALL our memories and putting them on the cloud. So in 2021 i bought a bunch of early 2000's technology to try and achieve this.......and thats where i am at today.

So tonight i will try and capture 10 seconds of my current work flow and then try and capture some with VD's default compression settings. I think thats what you are asking me to do.

And lastly, how do you get the Hi8 to the DVD thru the Magnavox? Is there a pass through?

Video8 and Hi8 are analog formats. I connect the analog camera output to the RCA inputs on the front panel of the recorder.

Do you worry about it being a lossless format?

With analog 4:1:1 source? No.

My grandfather's favorite expression was, "You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear."

Do you fret about TBC?

Not unless I need it, in which case I usually just let it go.

Do you happen to have the model number of the Magnavox VHS to DVD recorder?

I got it at Goodwill.

 

 

Your Grandpa was a wise man! Its sage advice. Thanks for the picture of the Combo unit. Last week i bought a Panasonic Combo unit off Etsy. MAINLY for the fact it had SVideo. Yeah i bought a player only because it had Svideo out....

(Hope this link works. I cant find a way to attach a picture to this post like you have done)

https://www.etsy.com/listing/960758889/fully-refurbished-panasonic-pv-d4744s?transaction_id=2825498884

Who knew finding solid working VCR's in 2022 would be a semi difficult and EXPENSIVE thing! Some sought after units by Video Nerds are going for 800-1000 bux!!

If all i truly need is a reliable VCR to DVD combo unit this will be great news. I can then put my Datavideo TBC on ebay and recover what i paid for it. They aint cheap!

At the end of the day i just want a good transfer of family videos, edit them in Vegas and put them on the cloud. No more, no less.

@Howard-Vigorita You uploaded in 29.97fps progressive NTSC to Vimeo, and this is an example of a bad frame that would have looked fine with QTGMC 59.94 progressive conversion.

@Former user That's the framing in the original 8mm tape the vhs was made from which could have been better... I had no involvement with that process beyond the sound track. After doing the present day transfer, I could have used Vegas keyframes to stretch the frames containing that graphic to the frame borders or enlarged and cropped the frames but I was asked not to do either.

Your source is not 720x480 3:2 DAR (it is 4:3 DAR), so it may have been adulterated during capture...

@Musicvid I saw that happen when I did a test render of an advc100 avi transfer using the square pixel aspect ratio which is the default of the render preset I used. Vegas media properties picked up the correct pixel aspect ratio automatically but apparently doesn't transfer it to the render template or have a ready-made preset for it. Changing the template aspect ratio to .9091 fixed it for me. Don't know if this is also applies to other transfer hardware like Pinnacle/Dazzel or is specific only to Canopus.

Aha, the missing link! You are connecting to your computer through USB, not firewire; wish I had caught that earlier.

This is precisely the test I suggested:

1. Don't capture using VirtualDub's capture utility. If you are uncomfortable with that, try capturing DV-AVI 4:3 (DV25) in VDub, not Lagarith, not anything else. Sorry for the blank spot in my thinking, but I have no earthly idea what "Crossbar" is or does, and it seems to be obsolete because the site is down.
2. If you are willing, load the Pinnacle software from your installation disc, and try using that program to encode DV-AVI from your USB, since that "should" do exactly the same thing, but without using redundant conversions.
3. Then, see how your DV capture looks, and upload a sample to Drive or Dropbox if you deem it worthy.

(Aside: Vegas' capture utility is only used through a 1394 IEEE cable, not USB).

Your setup is sounding a bit Goldbergian, due to absolutely no fault or shortcoming on your own, but by the foibles of chat room ad populum. Are you beginning to see my "internet background noise" analogy? No, I most certainly do not have the perfect answer for you, but I started capturing analog VHS tapes with a Pinnacle DC10+ card and Windows 98b over two decades ago, meaning I have made just about every mistake possible over the years.

Aha, the missing link! You are connecting to your computer through USB, not firewire; wish I had caught that earlier.

This is precisely the test I suggested:

1. Don't capture using VirtualDub's capture utility. If you are uncomfortable with that, try capturing DV-AVI 4:3 (DV25) in VDub, not Lagarith, not anything else. Sorry for the blank spot in my thinking, but I have no earthly idea what "Crossbar" is or does, and it seems to be obsolete because the site is down.
2. If you are willing, load the Pinnacle software from your installation disc, and try using that program to encode DV-AVI from your USB, since that "should" do exactly the same thing, but without using redundant conversions.
3. Then, see how your DV capture looks, and upload a sample to Drive or Dropbox if you deem it worthy.

(Aside: Vegas' capture utility is only used through a 1394 IEEE cable, not USB).

Your setup is sounding a bit Goldbergian, due to absolutely no fault or shortcoming on your own, but by the foibles of chat room ad populum. Are you beginning to see my "internet background noise" analogy? No, I most certainly do not have the perfect answer for you, but I started capturing analog VHS tapes with a Pinnacle DC10+ card and Windows 98b over two decades ago, meaning I have made just about every mistake possible over the years.

 

Yeah, the Pinnacle USB thing i have is USB only. Now,i am unsure how to capture if i dont use Virtualdub and CANT use Vegas (USB reasons). I have been told the pinnacle SW for my widget is junk. I'll give the VD DV-AVI a go this evening.

Thanks for the reminder about Vegas capture being only Firewire. I'd forgotten that.

On a side note, my captures look fine for all intensive purposes. Originally, I was just looking for the best render choices in vegas to use for my video. Now i am fretting about acronyms that i dont even understand :-)

On an aside note, i had the refurb place on Etsy swap out the Combo unit i had ordered for a Toshiba DVR 620 combo. I THINK its got all that i need...should i throw up my hands and just start copying VHS to DVD and importing that into vegas. If that fails, its got Svideo In & Out!

Does the file the DVD/VCR combo's create work okay in Vegas?

BTW, Win7 needs the Crossbar Thing step, to swap from composite to s-video, before opening Virtualdub. Thats all it does. Its a utility that gives me me a U.I. that allows me to choose Svideo in or Component in.

The specs for your Pinnacle USB-510 interface, at least the ones I found, say it has firewire out, and you said you were using a Canopus earlier, which is firewire out. Thus my apparent state of confusion.

That said, I discovered a copy of Virtual Dub 32 on my system, by virtue of Happy Otter. All should be well without changing a thing in your workflow, with the exception of this:

• Instead of choosing Lagarith, choose Grass Valley DV as your VirtualDub compression method (codec). It is a fully compliant DV25 codec that was designed especially to match your NTSC tape source! And a case of cooties to whoever told you to use buggy Lagarith as your digital intermediate....

Then, render with this customized Vegas template (save it under your own title so you can re-use it).

That's it. 100% seamless with both your source and Vegas. Please still post back with some samples and your results, but you should have few further issues.

Note that I have fully tested this method in both VDub and Vegas, and confidence is pretty high at this point. This was some really crappy Video8 footage from a consumer camcorder.

Does the file the DVD/VCR combo's create work okay in Vegas?

Yes, that is what I now use, as I indicated. You just have to rip the files from the DVD.

@Denicio

The specs for your Pinnacle USB-510 interface, at least the ones I found, say it has firewire out, and you said you were using a Canopus earlier, which is firewire out. Thus my apparent state of confusion.

Its probably more my fault than yours. Ask me anything about pro audio equipment and i'll bore and bedazzle you with details you'd never care to know (The First 100 Neumann U47 microphones were HAND wound. After that 100, they moved to a winding machine.....see, useless Audio information). Now, As for video equipment i own....my expertise lies just above programming the clock on a VCR! HA! Yeah, i got my rig hooked up because i understand signal flow. But knowing the Goz-ins and goz-outs, nope, dont know. Tonight i can look at the actual device and take pictures of it. As for Canopus and Firewire, that was 3 Mondo Computer systems ago. About every 3-4 years i treat myself to the latest technology. Today my rig has those new fangled NVME hard drives (darn things look like ram). My current system is stupefyingly fast! BUT my current system does not have a firewire card in it. I do have one i could add, if need be.

That said, I discovered a copy of Virtual Dub 32 on my system, by virtue of Happy Otter. All should be well without changing a thing in your workflow, with the exception of this:

• Instead of choosing Lagarith, choose Grass Valley DV as your VirtualDub compression method (codec). It is a fully compliant DV25 codec that was designed especially to match your NTSC tape source! And a case of cooties to whoever told you to use buggy Lagarith as your digital intermediate....

Well, i have included pictures here of what my lagrith options are. I dont have grass valley as a choice. Wonder if i can download it.

First the MAIN menu in Lag:

Now inside the capture avi utility i have this choice:

Now, here are the test files you folks requested. This link SHOULD work. Its to my drop box.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hslodi2djddkx8e/AADu7lixR3xq4ta_voNoGdA3a?dl=0

Should be nearly the same content for both files. One with the only option thats not lagraith, and one with lagraith. As you see the same amount of footage creates two very different file sizes. I suppose thats the reason i started using Lagraith in the first place. In defense of the bloke who told me to use Lagraith, its only because the one he wanted me to use (huffluv, i think is the name) would not work on my system for reasons i cant explain.

Kindly let me know if you were able to download these files. If this does not work i'll have to find a different way.

@Denicio

Based on the capture that you have:

This rendered file should stream easily from a DLNA server or play on any telephone or tablet.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nt3iCeH54Gnl_hog8rE-5NzPRPWCDbCs/view?usp=sharing

The video is what it is.

@Denicio

Based on the capture that you have:

This rendered file should stream easily from a DLNA server or play on any telephone or tablet.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nt3iCeH54Gnl_hog8rE-5NzPRPWCDbCs/view?usp=sharing

The video is what it is.

John,

Thanks for sharing and tinkering. Can you share the exact vegas settings you used to render this? Thats ultimately what i am after.

Also, did you render it using the Lagraith or Non-Lagraith file?

I like your new screen name. I'm glad you weren't offended by my comments wrt that "other" forum; I only dislike narcissists who disagree with me! (irony intended). Your Lordsmurf's "test" for professionalism is a hoot!

Now for the good news -- both files are the correct aspect! The .9091 PAR is being ignored by MediaInfo, so it defaults to 1.0 (3:2 DAR). Vegas reads the PAR correctly, so you you "could" go on as you have been. However, if I were you, I would go ahead and download the Grass Valley codecs (You want Grass Valley DV).

I made this MP4 in Vegas from your uncompressed AVI using the custom template I suggested. So it looks like you're good to go! I added a Medium Unsharp Mask fx. It will work fine on the cloud or in Youtube. @john_dennis' interpretation is equally good. He used legacy nonanamorphic NTSC display aspect.

I also started my career in recording studios (college trained) and commercial photography. So the transition to video production was a natural evolvement (signature below). I designed the sound for some pretty big shows. When you have time, hop over to the Audio forum and introduce yourself to @rraud, also a veteran recording engineer.

Welcome to the forums (you've passed the initiation), and we're always here to help, provided no one is too hung over...

I like your new screen name.

Thanks! I realized this forum was posting my real name (my fault). On the interwebz i rarely go by my real name. Not that i am hiding, i just love the nickname bestowed upon me by a band i produced.

Here's the SHORT version.

A record i was working on slowly for a year suddenly got a mastering deadline...thanks to the Diva Lead Singer (ahem). I was told on a Thursday that we had a 9 AM mastering session with Benny Quinn the upcoming MONDAY! I live in Memphis and Benny is in Nashvegas. A 4 hour drive.

ALL we had done was track these songs. A couple of them were in various mix stages but no where close to being done. So the decision was made to come over Friday night and the band would work in rotation keeping me awake so we could meet the deadline. Me and the boys in the band do NOT and will not play with the magical white powder that normally fuels long studio sessions. So we'd work for hours and hours, take short breaks and keep working. About 3 am sunday morning the band was asleep on the studio couches and chairs except for the bass player. He'd drum up idle chit chat to keep me awake while i worked. By this point i was delirious. The bass player asks me "Who's your new favorite movie stars?". Well, the wife and i had just seen Gilliam's Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas and i said "There is this guy that we ALL gotta watch out for, he's freaking amazing! His name is Benicio DelToro". (Note: Remember, my real first name is Dennis). In THAT instant the guitar player woke from a deep sleep, rose up and said "Did you say DENICIO?". I fell out of my chair, the bass player laughed till he peed himself and we woke the entire band with delirious laughter. From THAT moment on the band ONLY called me Denicio. My wife and kids heard it the next day....and they started calling me that. So, the name stuck. Ever since then i have gone by Denicio or Denicio DelToro.

Now, you know.

I like your new screen name. I'm glad you weren't offended by my comments wrt that "other" forum; I only dislike narcissists who disagree with me! (irony intended). Your Lordsmurf's "test" for professionalism is a hoot!

Well, he's good at what he does and has been a big help to me. But like in the days of Gearslutz (audio forum) helpful folks have ALL KINDS of personalities and opinions. Having cut my teeth DAW wise in the early days of internet fourms (Steinberg Nuendo and Gearslutz) i've honed my skills of cutting through the noise and pulling out the info i need. LordSmurf has been good to me and been quite helpful. I honestly think his nerdy specialty expertise is very niche'. He's been doing this for 20+ years too. The problem is that he's not a Vegas NLE power user....like many of you here. Which is why i am here.

Now for the good news -- both files are the correct aspect! The .9091 PAR is being ignored by MediaInfo, so it defaults to 1.0 (3:2 DAR). Vegas reads the PAR correctly, so you you "could" go on as you have been. However, if I were you, I would go ahead and download the Grass Valley codecs (You want Grass Valley DV).

So, in this instance. You are using Grass Valley in DV during the capture or in Vegas during a render?

If i had to guess, i'd say in DV. Can you clarify where and when you used it?

I made this MP4 in Vegas from your uncompressed AVI using the custom template I suggested. So it looks like you're good to go! I added a Medium Unsharp Mask fx. It will work fine on the cloud or in Youtube. @john_dennis' interpretation is equally good. He used legacy nonanamorphic NTSC dimensions.

1. This render looks quite good. Thanks for doing this and showing it to me.

2. Custom Template? The one for Grass Valley? Or another one in Vegas? I am a little confused.

3. No idea what a Medium Unsharp Mask is or what it does. Is that something in vegas?

I also started my career in recording studios (college trained) and commercial photography. So the transition to video production was a natural evolvement (signature below). I designed the sound for some pretty big shows. When you have time, hop over to the Audio forum and introduce yourself to @rraud, also a veteran recording engineer.

Welcome to the forums (you've passed the initiation), and we're always here to help, provided no one is too hung over...

Thanks for allowing my nubie arse into y'alls universe of knowledge. I appreciate any and all comments and suggestions. Once i get all these tapes transferred and archived i plan on selling this TBC-1000 to recover my costs (as i wont need it anymore) and to give someone else the top tools they will need. Lord Smurf said "Consider it a rental" by buying it and reselling it. I normally would not have spent that much money on a video gadget but when presented to me as a rental, it made total sense.

So, in this instance. You are using Grass Valley in DV during the capture or in Vegas during a render?

The screenshot is VirtualDub's Compression Menu. I suggest using Grass Valley DV for your AVI Capture in VirtualDub. AVI is not a delivery format; Vegas has it's own DV Capture Codec, if that's what you're asking (?)

1. This render looks quite good. Thanks for doing this and showing it to me.

• You are quite welcome. Took me all of ten minutes once I had your good capture

2. Custom Template? The one for Grass Valley? Or another one in Vegas? I am a little confused.

• This one. Your Render Template in Vegas. I posted it three replies up. I suggested saving under a new name so you can use it over and over.
• 

3. No idea what a Medium Unsharp Mask is or what it does. Is that something in vegas?

• Just look in your Vegas fX. It can be applied at the Media, Track, Event, or Output level, but if you are using other effects, I recommend applying it first in the fx chain. It is a low-block, as opposed to a high-pass filter, so it won't increase grain very much.

Now that we are all a little better informed, render your first project and feel free to share it if you wish and ask questions. As I tell my students, "We've talked long enough. Now get out there and make some really good mistakes!

3. No idea what a Medium Unsharp Mask is or what it does. Is that something in vegas?

• Just look in your Vegas fX. It can be applied at the Media, Track, Event, or Output level, but if you are using other effects, I recommend applying it first in the fx chain. It is a low-block, as opposed to a high-pass filter, so it won't increase grain very much.

ONE LAST question on this...and off to mistaking making i shall go! (Hey, making mistakes is how i learned to be a recording Mogul.....or is that a recording Mongrel?)

The Question: I had not planned on really doing anything other than editing. So if i use the unsharp mask, just use the DEFAULT setting? or are there setting inside of that plug in i need to tweak?

The default setting does nothing that I can tell. I generally use the Light setting on digital assets, Medium on analog captures. I apply it at the Media level.