Goodbye Vegas...Hello DaVinci

Comments

Editor_101 wrote on 6/17/2019, 5:32 PM

And the reason why someone would make a thread like this is because, as paying customers, their voice matters as much as yours. The fact that they decided to use another NLE, moving forwards, and they aren't posting an endorsement of the product does not change that.

If people just left without giving feedback, even critical/negative feedback, then the developers would only see a dwindling userbase and not have a clue WHY people are leaving.

All of this feedback is important.

These forums are largely an echo chamber, anyways, which is why we see mostly the same people posting, for the most part. I think MAGIX should do more to bring out more voices - all voices - so that they can better address the concerns of their user base, gain new users (outside of Humble Bundles), and possibly bring some of those people back.

As far as Resolve is concerned, they have lost that battle, IMO. Unless you're going with VEGAS based on reputation or price ($25 bundles), it's hard to justify it over Resolve, and I don't see VEGAS Post changing that.

Things like improving the Playback Engine should have been in VP16, considering 14 and 15 were pretty meager/minor updates... practically service packs.

vkmast wrote on 6/17/2019, 6:38 PM

Editor_101 wrote:

May I contribute, since I own both VEGAS Pro and DaVinci Resolve Studio (using the v16 Beta at the moment):

Of course you may. And thanks for registering and joining this forum just to participate in this discussion. Constructive criticism and 101s from members, old or new, as they see them are welcome.

Anyway, as this topic comes up every now and then, may I remind you of the comment from the Vegas P.O. in another related thread. It is here.

Kinvermark wrote on 6/17/2019, 10:37 PM

@Editor_101

Wow, that's quite a first post!

Can I ask a favour of you? Don't shoot first and ask questions later. Assume you fellow forum members are reasonable and well informed and then move on from there. And PLEASE don't write such long posts! In order to respond I have to keep jumping pages to find each inaccurate "fact" - maybe that's your strategy. :)

Couple quick things: I am not interested in bashing software. I enjoy using both programs and know them well enough to be quite confident in the accuracy of what I have said. I do not believe there is, or needs to be, one best NLE. So clearly, I don't really want to engage you in a pointless debate about which one is "better."

However, your post is full of flaws:

1) Output Formats: No VFW, No Pro-res, No blu-ray formats, heavily reliant on quicktime formats (Boo!). Resolve's h.264/265 output is either poor or ridiculously large (Not just my opinion; shared by Resolve Forum members). Frame-serving is NOT irrelevant. It saves an entire intermediate render step. This is a much requested feature on the Resolve forum.

2) Preview performance: No way is Resolve better ON MY MACHINE. YMMV. I do have the Studio version. Again, there are endless complaints on the Resolve forum about working with h.265 footage. Solution is the same as it is for Vegas: Use proxies. Problem solved.

3) Propaganda. Now THAT is insulting. And ridiculous when considering the whole purpose of your post and where you are making it. I would NEVER go to the Resolve forum and start hacking away. The rest of your commentary in that section is really confused and irrelevant. I stand by what I said: Editing fluidity is far better in Vegas. But clearly this has a subjective component, so you go ahead and dream Resolve is just as fluid as Vegas, and i will have a cup of coffee because I finished my edit ages before you.

4) Resolve Dynamic Zoom. I most CERTAINLY HAVE used this feature. It's cool, but half-baked. If you have media that doesn't have the same aspect ratio as your video settings (you know, like a PHOTO!) then it doesn't show you the zoomed/cropped version until you hit playback - you have to fiddle interminably to get the right look. Plus it is still a clip by clip workflow (slow) and NO, X,Y POSITION KEYFRAME EASING IN RESOLVE IS CURRENTLY BROKEN. Do your research before you correct me.

5) Vegasaur, HOS, and scripting in general. Here, at last, we agree! I AM dependent upon these kinds of extensions. Thank goodness for them. Resolve has nothing like them.

As far as your other condescending remarks about them: IGNORE.

As far as your other condescending remarks about Vegas: If you actually have suggestions to improve the software, then please make them. If you are just some sort of weird Resolve evangelist getting your jollies by tearing down other software programs, then we're done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Grazie wrote on 6/17/2019, 11:49 PM

@Editor_101

Wow, that's quite a first post!

Can I ask a favour of you? Don't shoot first and ask questions later. Assume you fellow forum members are reasonable and well informed and then move on from there.

@Kinvermark - What a well crafted, intelligent, sane and balanced response. Dang, I wish I'd have penned that. If this Forum is about anything it is about Solving Issues and Creating NEW and relevant Solutions. Having badgered, or should that have be "Ottered", Mr Wayne (Waggle) had, waaaayyyy back initially created a solution for me to Render as Take, which when needed, I use daily. If it wasn't for him+this Forum, my distant options would have had to remain just that - like the water mirage in a dry dry desert. Prior to Waggle was John Meyer, John Rofrano and Edward Troxel, all here, all giving freely their immense understandings on all things Coding and the like.

So, @Editor_101 you're welcome to be here and to share in the expertise and Fun. We do have a lot of fun here, honest! 😎

Grazie

PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti

PC 10 64-bit 64gb * Intel® Core™i9 - 3.3GHz * 40Gb NVIDIA  GeForce RTX 2070

Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX60HS Bridge

TheRhino wrote on 6/18/2019, 10:03 AM

1)  No VFW, No Pro-res, No blu-ray formats, heavily reliant on quicktime formats (Boo!).

I prefer Vegas for solo work, but use Premiere Pro (Windows) & FCP (on an aging Mac Pro...) for collaborative work...  If enough clients request Resolve Studio collaboration, then I will have to add it to the list...  However, before I can use it for solo work it has to have frame-serving, ProRes & BR/DVD exports, full-screen 2nd monitor output, etc...

BM includes a FREE license with some of their hardware/cameras, it is gaining popularity, and they actually listen to their customer base & are making decent improvements with each upgrade...  IMO their hardware sales offset the cost of R&D to make Resolve Studio better...  However, one thing's for certain...  I am NOT overpaying for a
new Apple Mac Pro just so I can export ProRes…  They need to add ProRes exports in Windows which likely involves paying Apple a hefty license fee... 

Last changed by TheRhino on 6/18/2019, 10:03 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Renders Vegas11 "Red Car Test" (QSV) in 13s-14s when clocked at 5.0 ghz
(note: BOTH onboard Intel & Vega64 show utilization during QSV renders...)

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ulrik-farlov-qvist wrote on 6/19/2019, 12:23 AM

Well. As the creator of this post I will give you guys an update:

I have now tried Vegas on another PC: i9-9900K, 32 GB RAM, M.2 harddisk (1000 mb/s), NVidia 1060 GTX SC 6GB. Freshly installed Win10 with all updates, newest GFX driver etc. So a very beefy machine.

I drag a Mavic 2 Pro drone clip (H265 D-LOGM, 10-bit) in the timeline. The preview is grindingly slow. 5-10 fps at the best.

Then I create proxies. Better and usable but very poor quality preview video to work with.

Now I add lens correction, color curves and LUT.

Again everything gets horribly slow and now completely useless.

 

And...yes I have tried disabling the GPU, doing the "disable so4compund thing", rendering thread, memory cache. etc.

Nothing helps.

 

Now I turn to DaVinci.

Fresh install of their v.16 beta 4 on the same PC. Vanilla settings in Davinci - didn't touch a dial.

Drop the same clip in the timeline..hmm. crisp quality preview and no stuttering and no lags. Proxies are not even enabled.

I get adventurous and add lens correction and LUT. Still crisp quality and no frame drops. This is really good.

 

So my conclusion..Even though I like the way Vegas works (editing and workflow-wise) Its not possible for me to work with a program thats so slow in editing. It completely stops my progress. I have spent the last to evenings searching the web for solutions for this to give Vegas a second chance, but sorry it comes down to, in my opinion, poor software performance from Vegas. I am ready to buy Davincis paid version of 299$.

BR

Ulrik

john_dennis wrote on 6/19/2019, 12:32 AM

"Whatever gets you through the night." John Lennon, 1974

Kinvermark wrote on 6/19/2019, 12:47 AM

@ulrik-farlov-qvist

Thank you for finally posting some real details about your problem. Yes, h265 10 bit is going to be difficult to decode, and it is entirely possible that Resolve's latest beta has been optimized for playback of this specific format - I don't have footage to test, so I cannot confirm or deny that. I do know that Blackmagic forum users have complained about Resolve's playback of this kind of footage in the past.

This, however, is problematic:

Then I create proxies. Better and usable but very poor quality preview video to work with.

Now I add lens correction, color curves and LUT.

Again everything gets horribly slow and now completely useless.

There is no way with the horsepower your machine has that you cannot get a workable high quality proxy or intermediate that will play back nicely in Vegas. Something is wrong.

If you are still interested, I would suggest you start a new thread for the purpose of diagnosing the issue. As a start I would suggest you try a high quality UHD cineform file.

PS What is this "lens correction" effect?

wwjd wrote on 6/19/2019, 6:33 AM

why should he have to try to FIX Vegas? Just use Resolve that already works.

Is it that far fetched to expect a company making and selling video editing software to keep up with all the crazy format and codec changes? Things always change and update - nature of the business.

I've experienced the exact same thing as ulrick: resolve flies, vegas stutters and gags on same great gear. Also worked great in Premiere, Hitfilm, and another I forgot already

Kinvermark wrote on 6/19/2019, 9:52 AM

@bob-h

Is that 10 bit h265 drone footage or something else?

@wwjd

You are oversimplifying for sake of argument. Picking one format and a selective subset of users doesn't make something universally true. Which is generally what gets claimed.

I have absolutley NO PROBLEM with you or anyone else using Resolve exclusively or otherwise.

So why do some people have a PROBLEM with me or anyone else using Vegas as our preferred editor?

Is it really that hard to accept that someone might have a different situation from you own?

 

Dimitrios wrote on 6/19/2019, 2:35 PM

This is probably known all ready but if you are using proxies you should set your viewer to preview full. This should still look good and not have any lag.

wwjd wrote on 6/19/2019, 6:57 PM

 

Is it really that hard to accept that someone might have a different situation from you own?

Nnnnnnope. I love Vegas, it's all I use. But when it hobbles off on its cane to go get its scooter, telling me to wait up, I'm pulling the plug. :) It's JUST software, a thing, that isn't keeping up.

ulrik-farlov-qvist wrote on 6/20/2019, 1:18 PM

This is probably known all ready but if you are using proxies you should set your viewer to preview full. This should still look good and not have any lag.

I already tried this. I tried Auto, Full, Half...Full is grindingly slow (even with proxies) with extremely poor quality video

ulrik-farlov-qvist wrote on 6/20/2019, 1:21 PM

@ulrik-farlov-qvist

Thank you for finally posting some real details about your problem. Yes, h265 10 bit is going to be difficult to decode, and it is entirely possible that Resolve's latest beta has been optimized for playback of this specific format - I don't have footage to test, so I cannot confirm or deny that. I do know that Blackmagic forum users have complained about Resolve's playback of this kind of footage in the past.

This, however, is problematic:

Then I create proxies. Better and usable but very poor quality preview video to work with.

Now I add lens correction, color curves and LUT.

Again everything gets horribly slow and now completely useless.

There is no way with the horsepower your machine has that you cannot get a workable high quality proxy or intermediate that will play back nicely in Vegas. Something is wrong.

If you are still interested, I would suggest you start a new thread for the purpose of diagnosing the issue. As a start I would suggest you try a high quality UHD cineform file.

PS What is this "lens correction" effect?

But why do I have to convert the videos to another format and use time and hdd space, when Resolve can edit the raw files on the fly without a performance hit?

The lens correction effect is because the DJI Mavic 2 Pro has barrel-distortion (like GoPros etc.) which must be corrected in post.

klt wrote on 6/20/2019, 2:52 PM

But why do I have to convert the videos to another format and use time and hdd space

I don't know how you did it, but for me DR (lite/free) accepts basically only Prores, DNxHD / DNxHR (all of them are HUUUGE compared to what my cameras produce) or Mpeg2 (even 4:2:2).

And I'm limited to fullHD, which is not a problem for me.

Or am I missing something obvious again...

 

Editor_101 wrote on 6/20/2019, 4:22 PM

Resolve [Free] does not support 10-Bit HEVC or H.264 Import. You'll have to transcode. It also doesn't render to HEVC or 10-Bit formats. It has no HDR workflow, 3D, or VR. It's a free, cut down version designed for hobbyists and users with less professional needs. Some of the better tooling and effect are paywalled, as they are more pro-grade.

However, many of that goes beyond what NLEs typically bundle out of the box, anyways (Face Refinement, Noise Reduction, Planar and Camera Tracking, etc. all require third party plug-in purchases in VEGAS Pro).

-----

As far as "shooting first and asking questions later," that's AOK when people post misinformation - or mislead others with wrong information (intentionally, or otherwise) - about another product. We can easily quote 1,000 posts on this forum where misinformation about VEGAS Post is called out in a similar manner - including by you... no one seems to have a problem with that...

The fact that this is the VEGAS forum does not give anyone full rights to post misinformed information about another product, especially when users may be reading this information for hte sake of comparison - to make a decision on which product they want to invest in. Some aren't as "rich" as us. Money is not an endless resource.

For example, the statement:

I don't know how you did it, but for me DR (lite/free) accepts basically only Prores, DNxHD / DNxHR (all of them are HUUUGE compared to what my cameras produce) or Mpeg2 (even 4:2:2).

Hmmm… nope... Not true at all.

But going to the support site and reading the document titled "DaVinci Resolve 15 Supported CODECs" is clearly too hard for people to do. They'd rather just post this and be immune from a correction because of where they've posted it...

We're free to have our own preferences. We're not free to have our own facts.

And I've never seen anyone treated the way people are treated here when they are critical of Resolve on those forums and say that VEGAS does something better. In fact, they are happily entertaining a number of feature requests from VEGAS "refugees" over there.

Calling the OP a troll is a bit much, don't you think?

Won't be back. Enjoy your fake news.

vkmast wrote on 6/20/2019, 4:30 PM

Editor_101 wrote:

people post misinformation - or mislead others with wrong information (intentionally, or otherwise) - about another product. We can easily quote 1,000 posts on this forum where misinformation about VEGAS Post is called out in a similar manner

ulrik-farlov-qvist wrote on 6/20/2019, 11:51 PM

But why do I have to convert the videos to another format and use time and hdd space

I don't know how you did it, but for me DR (lite/free) accepts basically only Prores, DNxHD / DNxHR (all of them are HUUUGE compared to what my cameras produce) or Mpeg2 (even 4:2:2).

And I'm limited to fullHD, which is not a problem for me.

Or am I missing something obvious again...

 

I dowmloaded DR16 (beta) from BlackMagics site, the HEVC codec from Microsoft and it worked. All done on a clean install of Windows 10.. works with 4k HEVC 10 bit.

klt wrote on 6/21/2019, 2:17 AM

@ulrik-farlov-qvist Thanks for the explanation! 😉

@Editor_101

Hmmm… nope... Not true at all.

I was sure I meant the codec support of the FREE version. Maybe my bad english...

I admit, the whole list of supported codecs was TLDR for me as I looked for something I can easily convert into using ffmpeg.

For example, the manual you linked tells AVCHD is supported. To my experience it is definitely NOT the case with the free version... It doesn't accept AVCHD from Canon XA10 nor JVC GY HM600. To my understanding I should buy the studio version to be able to work with AVCHD directly...

Am I missing something again?