The case for a complete overhaul of VEGAS

Comments

adimatis wrote on 4/30/2020, 5:42 AM

Thanks again! :)

This simple explanation only makes me think why on earth would have been allowed both of these formats...? If it was a relatively simple job to do, didn't the team think is important to look good, consistent from one tab to the very next one?

Anyway... these things I really hope would be addressed. Maybe it's trivial to most of us here, but somehow my aesthetic sense suffers a bit right now... :)

lan-mLMC wrote on 4/30/2020, 5:54 AM

This simple explanation only makes me think why on earth would have been allowed both of these formats...?

VEGAS' DirectX format plugin is only compatible with VEGAS Pro. In many years ago, Sony Vegas Pro is one of the most popular NLEs and many companies develop unique plugin for Sony Vegas Pro. Such as AAV colorlab, Protype title.

As time go on, other NLE rose. Which make Sony Vegas Pro become less popular and less company develop unique plugin which is only compatible with Sony Vegas Pro.

So Sony Vegas Pro add a OFX feature. It will make Vegas Pro have more compatible common OFX plugins.

If it was a relatively simple job to do, didn't the team think is important to look good, consistent from one tab to the very next one?

"simple job" is just my guess. Maybe it is not.

 

Steven-Sharkey wrote on 4/30/2020, 6:07 AM

Oh dear did I shell out for V17 too soon and should have waited a little longer for v18?

vkmast wrote on 4/30/2020, 6:13 AM

You'll see when version 18 comes out.

pierre-k wrote on 4/30/2020, 6:19 AM

Yes. I also mind the many graphic styles in Vegas. The graphics of Audio Plugins are really appalling.

It's best in Protype Titler because this plugin didn't make the Vegas team.

Dexcon wrote on 4/30/2020, 6:20 AM

Oh dear did I shell out for V17 too soon and should have waited a little longer for v18?

If you are getting a lot of use with VP17, then no.

As has been said for a long time, if you always want to wait for the next better technology (computers, consumer electronics, software, etc), you'd never buy anything because there would always be something better on the horizon.

 

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 19.0.3, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

Dell Inspiron 5310 EVO 13.3"

i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

vkmast wrote on 4/30/2020, 6:35 AM

+1* @Dexcon

VEGASDerek wrote on 4/30/2020, 8:02 AM

@adimatis VEGAS's is based on orignal .NET WinForms' UI.

This is not true...

In fact, the UI dates back to before .NET was even released. Much of the UI in VEGAS is based off of raw Win32 code and GDI drawing (not even MFC). The process of moving from Win32 to something much more modern is extremely difficult and time consuming, especially since there is absolutely no concept of the model-view architecture in the main code base. In fact, if the UI was WinForms based, we could make changes much more quickly since a separate UI layer would be built in. Many of the new components use WPF and newer technologies are being explored as well, but separating out the UI from the business logic to create the new components is a very slow process. So slow, in fact, that the previous owner of these products did not believe it was a worth while effort to pursue. (If you understand this babble, you will also begin to realize why a port to the Mac has not been attempted.)

pierre-k wrote on 4/30/2020, 9:04 AM

@adimatis VEGAS's is based on orignal .NET WinForms' UI.

This is not true...

In fact, the UI dates back to before .NET was even released. Much of the UI in VEGAS is based ......

Derek
I'm sorry but I don't understand.
Sony Vegas ended with version 13 and was not a revolutionary release.

Please answer me....
What was your team working on from version 13 until the takeover of Magix?
Have you developed Catalyst? Or another job?
Sony told you in 2014 - sorry guys but Vegas is ours and you're fired?

It was a lot of time to create Vegas in a new code.
Or Magix could only buy Catalyst and continue its development.
I believed in his future because he was clean new with nice graphics. You could have continued.

The problem with today's Vegas is that you fix one mistake and make three more mistakes elsewhere.

I'm afraid this is not the future, and one day you will find that you cannot continue.

Thank you for your time.

PS: I love Vegas!

Dexcon wrote on 4/30/2020, 9:05 AM

The very welcome comments from @VEGASDerek echo, but with a far more detailed and expert explanation, part of the overview comment I made earlier in this thread:

Even in huge corporations, multi-million $$$ computer systems introduced as far back as the 1970s or earlier face the same problems as does Vegas Pro these days. New coding often bypasses or detours earlier coding which likely in itself has a history of bypassing/detouring away from many other layers of earlier coding. Think back to Y2K when retired computer engineers were brought out of retirement to consult on historic systems coding which current engineers didn't have the depth of knowledge about.

The OP's supposition is admirable, but even multi-billion $$$ companies/governments find the cost of developing a totally new computer software system to be prohibitive.

Surely the primary purpose of UI and plug-in windows is usefulness, not elegance. No matter what Vegas Creative Software does with the look of VP's UI etc, it's not going to end up in Vogue magazine (Vogue - the Vegas Pro edition). Somebody suggested a month or so ago on this forum that VP's UI layout should be so elegant that it would become the focus of conversation by fashionable young women in a bar. Seriously ridiculous! How could VP ever distract these same fashionable young women from discussing nothing other than the font used in their local newspaper.

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 19.0.3, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

Dell Inspiron 5310 EVO 13.3"

i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

Dexcon wrote on 4/30/2020, 9:11 AM

@pierre-k … that's a very confused comment.

For a basic history of Vegas Pro, please refer to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegas_Pro

Also, Sony developed Catalyst, not MAGIX.as VEGASderek made clear by referring to the 'previous owner'.

Sony told you in 2014 - sorry guys but Vegas is ours and you're fired?

What in heavens name is that supposed to mean? It's non-sensical.

Last changed by Dexcon on 4/30/2020, 9:13 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 19.0.3, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

Dell Inspiron 5310 EVO 13.3"

i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

vkmast wrote on 4/30/2020, 9:25 AM

@Dexcon I also think the comment was a bit harsh.

pierre-k wrote on 4/30/2020, 9:26 AM

@pierre-k … that's a very confused comment.

For a basic history of Vegas Pro, please refer to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegas_Pro

Also, Sony developed Catalyst, not MAGIX.

Yes, I know. But I also know that Magix bought Vegas with the people of the original team. That's why I ask Derek, as a man of the original team. Not as a Magix representative.

And I ask very politely. I'm interested in it.

Dexcon wrote on 4/30/2020, 9:29 AM

@vkmast … I really like to know which of the above 2 of my comments you are referring to and why.

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 19.0.3, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

Dell Inspiron 5310 EVO 13.3"

i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

vkmast wrote on 4/30/2020, 9:31 AM

@Dexcon I was not referring to your comments :)

Dexcon wrote on 4/30/2020, 9:35 AM

@vkmast … my apologies … I jumped to the wrong conclusion - I read the comment as referring to my comment. Apologies again.

To quote Grazie … TAXI!

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 19.0.3, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

Dell Inspiron 5310 EVO 13.3"

i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

VEGASDerek wrote on 4/30/2020, 11:07 AM

This is the story...

After VEGAS Movie Studio 13 released in 2013 and VEGAS Pro 13 released in early 2014, the engineering resources for VEGAS shifted to work on the Catalyst project. Infrastructure work for Catalyst had already begun as those "last" VEGAS versions released. (The teams that had worked on VEGAS 13 had already been reduced at that point in favor of Catalyst.) About 2 years after that, the former owners sold the VEGAS line of products (along with Sound Forge and Acid) to MAGIX. It is no secret that the former owners had made significant workforce cuts prior to the sale (and again after the sale). I, and one, other came directly over to MAGIX and we brought on a small group of talented engineers who had been affected by the workforce reductions. We have since added some other very talented engineers who previously had no experience with VEGAS. We were also extremely fortunately that Gary signed on with the team. Quite honestly, the success of VEGAS since the move would not have been possible without his vision, commitment and guidance.

In regards to Catalyst, that product suite is still the property of the previous VEGAS owner and from what I understand is still available. The code used for Catalyst was completely separate from VEGAS as it was a complete rewrite, from the ground up. The code base which MAGIX purchased is the one and only VEGAS code base which was started over 2 decades ago. Yes there are some inefficiencies with it, as would be the case with any code base that is as old as that. But...the VEGAS code base has some very excellent infrastructure with which we have continued to build on.

As for our users, you should excited over the fact that our parent company, MAGIX, has given us enormous support. And, quite frankly, the interest in the VEGAS name has grown a lot under their leadership.

Hopefully that clarifies the history a bit.

Grazie wrote on 4/30/2020, 11:30 AM

From Dave Hill, through Matt Brohn to Gary I have spoken directly with all at Trade Shows, I can’t tell you, @VEGASDerek, just how much I applaud you in your words and your outline of the History. People truly need to here this. Thank you very much.

pierre-k wrote on 4/30/2020, 11:34 AM

This is the story...

Derek.
Thank you very much !!!

I tried Catalyst recently, but unfortunately. Development is very slow.
I'd say he stopped.

I'm glad Vegas is alive!
Good luck at work.

adimatis wrote on 4/30/2020, 12:12 PM

@pierre-k

I knew you'll be a real French and you'll express true elegance with your posts! :) Thanks for not taking this thread to south where it doesn't have to go!

@Dexcon

The "elegance" of a software product it absolutely important. Not primarily, but essential! In audio software, "mixing with eyes" is quite a natural inclination. Fortunately for us, our eyes are busy with something else... But nevertheless, graphics - very important.

@VEGASDerek

Thank you Derek for all these details - we do appreciate your openness and replies. And do appreciate your team efforts for making something nice of Vegas. Really! Keep the progress going, as there is no staying still, it either on wards or backwards.

Thumbs up!

:)

pierre-k wrote on 4/30/2020, 12:19 PM

@pierre-k

I knew you'll be a real French and you'll express true elegance with your posts! :)

Thank you. But I'm from the Czech Republic :-)))

adimatis wrote on 4/30/2020, 12:21 PM

I red more carefully a second time your posts @VEGASDerek :)

Should I read into them that improvements both on graphics and functionality for Vegas are both possible and actively pursued, despite the core-code being as venerable as it is?

I know the team is determined and committed, as you mentioned, I would just like to believe a ground-up re-write of Vegas ca be avoided while still the future is not (technically) limited to what is today...

Case?

Thanks! :)

@pierre-k 

Alright, from the western part, yeah?! ;) Ha!

pierre-k wrote on 4/30/2020, 12:52 PM

I would also like to comment on the elegance of the software.
When I saw this design from one fan in 2016, I was really excited and I believed that the Vegas team would adjust the UI similarly in the next version.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/vegas-pro-15-ui-concept-design--104300/

Unfortunately, this did not happen and the result was, in my opinion, worse than the original Vegas. The new Screen Capture is just as ugly.

New Vegas reminds me of AVID.
Maybe if the software is to be professional, it must not be visually appealing. Maybe it's the team's intention. I don't know.
This is not good for new young users.

I also think the Hamburger menu is great BUT .....
If a new user first opens Vegas and sees that all the great and unique features are hidden, then it's wrong.

It should be exactly the opposite. Just hide what I don't want.

Vegas is great for having many features. They should not be hidden at startup. Vegas is not a premiere.

That is all.
PS: I am polite and calm again. :-)