Vegas Pro Workflow Bugs as found in 19 and now Version 20

weinerschizel wrote on 6/21/2022, 12:29 PM

I'm writing this post with hopes that it is passed onto software team who develops Vegas. Some of these "workflow bugs" have existed since I started with the software over 10 years ago. I've purchased virtually ALL the updates since then. I'm a bit annoyed to see some of these "workflow bugs" from 10 years ago still unaddressed in the software.

These are bugs that do not crash the software, but which the software doesn't behave as expected and leads to issues in workflow. I've been capturing screen grabs for them as they come up.

Explorer Pane doesn't release files for them to be deleted

Raw Images Don't Sample Correctly in Timeline & Renders

Microphone Doesn't Always Arm (maybe my drivers / hardware?)

Multiple Suggestions
- Video EFX should default to favorites tab
- Timeline populates with empty frames when dragging clips from explorer
- Color Grading / audition different aspects of grade

Multiple Suggestions
- Explorer Pane doesn't always function as intended
- Windows Layouts don't remember where panes belong. Another video of issue HERE
- Render Codecs allow for you to select configurations that crash (have to experiment till can get working)

Comments

set wrote on 6/21/2022, 5:21 PM

your link of Mic doesn't always arm is still access denied.

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* I don't work for VEGAS Creative Software Team. I'm just Voluntary Moderator in this forum.

weinerschizel wrote on 6/21/2022, 5:38 PM

Thanks for looking at the posts. Hopefully this link works Microphone Doesn't Always Arm

 

RogerS wrote on 6/21/2022, 7:59 PM

Great stuff, thanks for compiling it and hope Vegas staff will review it, too.

I like the idea of Fx starting with favorites and limiting render templates to known legal values (GPU renders seem to have max bitrates for example).

I wasn't able to replicate the Explorer issues (not saying it isn't a problem as it is for you). I am able to change folders within that tab, delete files and drop almost any file onto the timeline including GoPro (one mov that is just jpeg with no sound didn't work).

The gaps between clips is odd- I wonder if that's a quantize to frame issue with GoPro files having odd lengths? I just dropped 10 X-AVC S 23.976 files onto the timeline and there are no gaps.

For the raw photos I think it's actually showing you an embedded jpeg preview in the raw file not the full raw file? I'd process it outside of Vegas and bring in a full resolution finished image. If you have VEGAS Post, Image can do this as can Adobe Lightroom or various third-party software.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

john_dennis wrote on 6/21/2022, 9:27 PM

@weinerschizel

DNG files are not "RAW".

https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/file-types/image/comparison/dng-vs-raw.html#diff_dng_raw

Perhaps you should be asking for better DNG support? PNG, TIFF or even JPG should be adequate for video.

RogerS wrote on 6/21/2022, 10:22 PM

Very interesting- is there a distinction within Vegas between DNG and other raw formats?

DNG is an open-source, royalty-free, highly compatible, and continuously improving raw image format that was built for editing photos

I tested Vegas a Pixel 3a (phone) DNG here and its 672x504. Sony ARW converted to DNG are 1024x683 (I use medium size setting in the converter).

For an ARW from a Sony a6500 and a6000 it is full resolution 6000x4000. RX100 IV is also full resolution 5472x2648.

For Canon CR2 from a M10 its 5184x3456.

Oddly enough the preview goes black when I use pan/crop to "zoom" in on a Sony ARW but not the Canon or Pixel raws.

So Vegas must just be using the embedded preview for DNG, and probably also the camera-produced raws which are just full size previews? It looks like noise reduction is applied... Vegas doesn't have a debayering engine, right?

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

weinerschizel wrote on 6/21/2022, 11:32 PM

Very interesting- is there a distinction within Vegas between DNG and other raw formats?

DNG is an open-source, royalty-free, highly compatible, and continuously improving raw image format that was built for editing photos

I tested Vegas a Pixel 3a (phone) DNG here and its 672x504. Sony ARW converted to DNG are 1024x683 (I use medium size setting in the converter).

For an ARW from a Sony a6500 and a6000 it is full resolution 6000x4000. RX100 IV is also full resolution 5472x2648.

For Canon CR2 from a M10 its 5184x3456.

Oddly enough the preview goes black when I use pan/crop to "zoom" in on a Sony ARW but not the Canon or Pixel raws.

So Vegas must just be using the embedded preview for DNG, and probably also the camera-produced raws which are just full size previews? It looks like noise reduction is applied... Vegas doesn't have a debayering engine, right?

Awesome, thanks! I thought maybe was something on my end. I hadn't had problems with the DNG files until recently. Must be that I'm converting ARW to DNG now as I got rid of my Canon hardware.

weinerschizel wrote on 6/21/2022, 11:41 PM

@RogerS that's interesting that your Explorer pane doesn't act up. I'd love ability to create folders in it too and organize clips better. I have to constantly switch between windows Explorer and Vegas in my workflow which costs me time and drive space as I get tired of doing the switch and leave my bad clips in the folder instead of deleting them.

Unsure about debayer engine. I do notice it utilizes my GPU much more than older versions did. I'd like to pickup a second GPU but they've gotten so $$$$$$ I'll have to test the GoPro versus Sony time code in my timeline and see if I get the gap. It maybe an issue on GoPros end now that you mention that. I'll contact them if so.

@john_dennis kind of wondered about DNG files but never knew. Are they lossless though? You can compress a file without loosing data, I guess I assumed that's what DNG did. At any rate, the quality is WAY worse embedding DNG into timeline than the original JPEG. I just read that article and I see Vegas must be using the preview JPEG to render from the DNG file.

 

RogerS wrote on 6/21/2022, 11:50 PM

DNG files are lossless raw data in a different, non-proprietary container. If you're using the Adobe DNG converter try full sized previews. The debayer engine is whether Vegas actually processes the raw file itself using the raw data (and is not related to the GPU and a newer GPU won't help.) I don't think it is, but rather is using whatever preview is in the file. To get the most out of your cameras I would do raw processing before bringing into Vegas. You can output a jpeg, TIFF or PNG, all of which will work fine in Vegas. Otherwise shoot raw + jpeg and use the jpegs.

Personally I use the project media folder instead of explorer within Vegas. I import media there and then tag clips to create buckets. Have you tried that as well?

I was wondering if the GoPro issue might be related to this: https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/question-re-drop-frame-gopro-30p--135726/

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

Former user wrote on 6/22/2022, 12:03 AM

@weinerschizel I think there are 3 types DNG RAW, 16-bit Linear DNG RAW, and Lossy DNG RAW. This is a description of the DNG's my Samsung phone creates:

Typically, DNG files store unprocessed RAW data. By contrast, Linear DNG files store some intermediate results of RAW conversion. Some initial processing steps have been applied — but only linear ones. This means that none of the data is lost to one-way, non-linear processes. As a result, Linear DNGs have exactly the same flexibility as RAW files when it comes to editing aspects such as brightness, color, and contrast.

If you look at the Adobe DNG save options I am guessing 'embed fast load data' is same as DNG Linear Raw and 'lossy compression' is actual JPG like compression but much higher quality . My Samsung DNG files perform terribly in Vegas, very high lag

weinerschizel wrote on 6/22/2022, 12:04 AM

@RogerS excellent advice. I will convert in Adobe DNG with full res preview. I have used the clip bucks and tags before, as well as notes. All great tools. I also like to throw out the bad clips (accidental records etc) when in Vegas sorting everything.

Feature Suggestions

I forgot to mention another feature that would be INSANELY helpful. Ability to do different color markers. so I often cut to beat of music. There's different beats in music, the convention is to mark the beats with markers in the trimmer tool. Then the different beats get different colors if that makes since. There's other reasons to use different color markers. One perhaps for grade adjustments another for reveal events in a clip. Many reasons one might like to change the color of the marker in the clip or on the timeline. I think avid has this ability would be awesome if we could do it in Vegas.

Ability to audition sections of color grade I'd love ability to turn off not just the whole color grade but aspects of it. For instance, I may adjust the shadows and want to turn that off and on to see if I improved the grade overall. Or often it's the curves. This was a bit easier when using the individual effects. However, the color grading tool set is WAY easier to use, I just cannot audition as well with it.

RogerS wrote on 6/22/2022, 12:36 AM

FYI, here are the options for DNGs based on Adobe Digital Negative Converter (latest build). I think they are all unprocessed raw unless you choose lossy compression (which I would not do- shoot raw & jpeg for that).

I read the embedded fast load data is just another preview that Adobe software uses to speed loading times. A single DNG can embed multiple preview images.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

john_dennis wrote on 6/22/2022, 1:37 AM

Over the last year and a half, I've scanned 4,942 negative images and they are all saved as TIF.

General
Complete name                            : F:\Epson V600\1965-08-01 Jackson Hole\1965-08-15-101 Grand Tetons.tif
Format                                   : TIFF
File size                                : 156 MiB
Writing application                      : Adobe Photoshop 22.4 (Windows)

Image
Format                                   : Raw
Format settings                          : Little
Width                                    : 5 332 pixels
Height                                   : 5 104 pixels
Color space                              : RGB
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Compression mode                         : Lossless
Encoded date                             : 2021:06:10 15:16:40
Density                                  : 4800.000 dpi

I've never felt the need to convert them to anything else except .JPG to stream from my media server.

General
Complete name                            : F:\Photos-JPG\1965-08-01 Jackson Hole\1965-08-15-101 Grand Tetons.jpg
Format                                   : JPEG
File size                                : 1.82 MiB

Image
Format                                   : JPEG
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 3 676 pixels
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:4:4
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 1.82 MiB (100%)
ColorSpace_ICC                           : RGB

I shoot RAW with my current Sony camera and convert to JPG so others can see them.

General
Complete name                            : E:\2022-06-16 Ella Swim\Stills\RAW\JAD07133.ARW
Format                                   : TIFF
File size                                : 19.9 MiB
Writing application                      : SONY DSC-RX10M4 v2.00
Writing library                          : DSC-RX10M4
FileExtension_Invalid                    : tiff tif

Image
Title                                    :                                
Format                                   : JPEG (TIFF v6)
Format settings                          : Little
Bit depth                                : 1 bit
Encoded date                             : 2022:06:16 18:24:16
Density                                  : 350 dpi

I frequently save multi-layer graphics to PSD for use in Vegas. I've never developed a real interest in DNG for any practical reason that I've learned, so far.

RogerS wrote on 6/22/2022, 2:24 AM

If your camera is newer than your editing software, DNG becomes a must for raw editing.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

john_dennis wrote on 6/22/2022, 2:54 AM

@RogerS

Noted.

weinerschizel wrote on 6/22/2022, 12:36 PM

@RogerS you hit the nail on the head. I do my image editing in CS5. I have found no easy way to edit my GoPro / .GPR or Alpha Raw / .ARW files. It's a sore point for me but I don't want to subscribe to Adobe for latest Photoshop. I really appreciate owning something even if it's a few more dollars. So I have to convert all my raw files from those cameras.

weinerschizel wrote on 6/27/2022, 7:13 PM

I have two more videos / Vegas suggestions. They aren't so much bugs as suggestions that would really help. I sure hope Magix's software development team sees this post.

Overlay curves and composite waveform

Explorer Pane Meta Data / Customizable Soft Fields

RogerS wrote on 6/27/2022, 7:24 PM

There is a feature requests thread here as well. You could link to this post or put it in directly so it doesn't get lost.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

weinerschizel wrote on 6/27/2022, 11:24 PM

I'll have to do that. Thanks :)

vkmast wrote on 6/28/2022, 2:42 AM

Please note that VEGAS Pro is being developed by the VEGAS (Creative Software) team. Magix's software development teams are responsible for the MAGIX product lines.

RogerS wrote on 6/28/2022, 3:22 AM

It would be nice to be able to pick points on curves by clicking a dropper on the preview image itself so we aren't guessing as to which tone is being affected.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

weinerschizel wrote on 6/28/2022, 4:55 PM

It would be nice to be able to pick points on curves by clicking a dropper on the preview image itself so we aren't guessing as to which tone is being affected.

That would be a huge help too... much like photoshop does.

amendegw wrote on 6/29/2022, 7:55 AM

@weinerschizel

DNG files are not "RAW".

https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/file-types/image/comparison/dng-vs-raw.html#diff_dng_raw

Perhaps you should be asking for better DNG support? PNG, TIFF or even JPG should be adequate for video.

It should be noted that several camera brands use DNG as their RAW format. Notably Leica.

...Jerry

System Model: Alienware Area-51m R2
System: Windows 11 Home
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz, 3792 Mhz, 8 Core(s), 16 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Memory: 64.0 GB
Display Adapter: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 Super (8GB), Nvidia Studio Driver 527.56 Dec 2022)
Overclock Off

Display: 1920x1080 144 hertz
Storage (12TB Total):
OS Drive: PM981a NVMe SAMSUNG 2048GB
Data Drive1: Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB
Data Drive2: Samsung SSD 870 QVO 8TB

USB: Thunderbolt 3 (USB Type-C) port Supports USB 3.2 Gen 2, DisplayPort 1.2, Thunderbolt 3

Cameras:
Canon R5
Canon R3
Sony A9

weinerschizel wrote on 7/5/2022, 6:51 PM

@amendegw thanks for the heads up. I don't know why they don't all use a open source raw file would make our lives a bit easier.

Another feature request custom overlays in the drop down / selection.

Currently you can only select from Grid or Safe areas. I have to create PNG files an another layer to bring in safe areas for Facebook videos, LinkedIn Videos, Instagram, etc. Those use different safe areas / keep outs. Would be nice if there was a third option on the drop down that allowed for a person to upload a PNG file that had other custom overlays drawn into it / keep outs.

DMT3 wrote on 7/5/2022, 7:28 PM

Under preferences, you can change the safe and safe title as well as grid spacing. Once you figure out your numbers you can change them as needed.