What is the best way to reduce shimmering video noise?

PeterDuke wrote on 11/26/2022, 7:46 PM

I have recorded a choral concert using an unattended Sony FDR-AX700 mounted on a tripod at the rear of the hall. The zoom was set to include everything of interest during the concert (choir, soloists and compere). The exposure controls (shutter, iris and ISO) were set to automatic, but the white balance was manual. The coding was set to 3840x2160 25p 100 Mbps. I intend to make a Blu-ray disc, 1920x1080 50i.

Normal playback looks good, but when I zoom in on say the compere, using Event Pan/Crop, by a factor of about 5.5, although the compere looks reasonable, given the large zoom, the static background is shimmering due to visual noise.

I have Sony Vegas Pro 13 and Magix Vegas Pro 17 for editing (as an old timer I prefer the interface of 13!) plus Adobe Production Suite CS6 (which includes After Effects CS6).

What is the best, straight-forward way for me to reduce the shimmering effect of the background while not significantly blurring the subject?

Some sort of inter-frame smoothing seems to be called for, since the subject tends to move fairly slowly relative to the shimmering.

Comments

fr0sty wrote on 11/26/2022, 8:25 PM

I intend to make a Blu-ray disc, 1920x1080 50i.

As far as resolution goes, you'd be better off going with 720p50 instead... 1080i gives you 1920x540 per field... or 1,036,800 pixels, but introduces interlacing artifacts where there's motion between fields. 720p50 gives you 921,600 pixels, with no interlacing artifacts. It isn't worth the drop in quality due to interlacing to gain an extra 115,200 pixels.

As for reducing the background noise, the best results for cleaning up the video without blurring it too badly is a plugin called Neat Video. It does a remarkable job of cleaning up video. Newer versions of VEGAS Pro (19+ IIRC) also include a denoise plugin.

Musicvid wrote on 11/26/2022, 10:11 PM

Upload an actual sample of the camera footage to Drive or Dropbox and post a link here. Many suggestions will follow, some of them good.

If your footage is 3840x2160, and your output is 1920x1080, your zoom factor should not exceed 2x.

If your Bluray output format is changed to 720p, as @fr0sty suggests, your zoom factor can be as much as 3x.

That's the math.

For larger magnification, the Upscale fx is suggested, but 4x is pushing the limits for any reasonable scenario.

Best of luck.

3POINT wrote on 11/27/2022, 1:48 AM

The coding was set to 3840x2160 25p 100 Mbps. I intend to make a Blu-ray disc, 1920x1080 50i.

Makes no sense to me to make from 2160p25, 1080i50 or even 720p50.

For Bluray delivery, I would try to slowdown 2160p25 to 1080p24.

vkmast wrote on 11/27/2022, 2:11 AM

@PeterDuke nice to see you back. Been a while.

RogerS wrote on 11/27/2022, 4:41 AM

For interframe smoothing there is also a deflicker Fx but I've had some stability challenges with it. Not sure if it's improved.

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andyrpsmith wrote on 11/27/2022, 6:00 AM

I have made many BluRay discs from my AX100 and some from my AX700 with fantastic results. I agree with 3POINT, I have always filmed at 2160p25 and output from a 1080p24 timeline where I have time stretched (slowdown to 96%). If you do not do this the video shows small jumps on movement, very annoying. I output using Sony AVC BluRay template (outputs video only) and output sound via AC3 pro (if you have it). I burn the BluRay using Sony DVD architect which does not re-encode if you have used the correct template to output the AVC file. [I have now moved away from BluRay and output 4K to USB stick as optical discs are not the future].

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Musicvid wrote on 11/27/2022, 7:58 AM

For Bluray delivery, I would try to slowdown 2160p25 to 1080p24.

For his choral concert, I wouldn't slow down or detune the audio. 50i is the best compromise, I think.

3POINT wrote on 11/27/2022, 10:38 AM

For Bluray delivery, I would try to slowdown 2160p25 to 1080p24.

For his choral concert, I wouldn't slow down or detune the audio. 50i is the best compromise, I think.

I bet when you don't know, you will not hear a difference . Also I doubt that we're talking about a high quality recording, when I read under which conditions it was made.

fr0sty wrote on 11/27/2022, 11:16 AM

50i is the best compromise, I think

Introducing interlacing artifacts that aren't there in the source, just to gain a few (>150k) extra pixels? I'd say 720 50p would be the better bet with that considered. At least they get 50 full frames then, and they aren't throwing away frames or every other row of pixels to do it.

Last changed by fr0sty on 11/27/2022, 11:17 AM, changed a total of 2 times.

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john_dennis wrote on 11/27/2022, 12:25 PM

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I was curious.

23.976p

25p

Musicvid wrote on 11/27/2022, 12:26 PM

 I'd say 720 50p would be the better bet with that considered.

Depends I think on whether or not his player supports the newer BD formats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Video

3POINT wrote on 11/27/2022, 2:07 PM

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I was curious.

23.976p

25p

Do you hear the difference?

john_dennis wrote on 11/27/2022, 2:19 PM

@3POINT

Yes, but I was a musician.

3POINT wrote on 11/27/2022, 2:27 PM

@3POINT

Yes, but I was a musician.

But can you also hear a difference without comparing?

Musicvid wrote on 11/27/2022, 2:35 PM

Yes, absolutely. Musicians and singers have pitch memory, the technical name is "relative pitch."

4% is a BFD in my world.

john_dennis wrote on 11/27/2022, 2:56 PM

@3POINT

I’m not sure how I would do in a double-blind test. I’d probably do better than the rest of the population. I’m aware that 24-25 fps frame rate changes are done routinely.

3POINT wrote on 11/27/2022, 3:25 PM

Luckily my eyes are better than my ears.

fr0sty wrote on 11/27/2022, 11:23 PM

 I'd say 720 50p would be the better bet with that considered.

Depends I think on whether or not his player supports the newer BD formats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Video

BD has always supported 720p50 in PAL regions... hasn't it? I know it supports 720p60 in NTSC in the original spec.

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EricLNZ wrote on 11/28/2022, 1:44 AM

Yes, absolutely. Musicians and singers have pitch memory

@Musicvid I'm tone deaf so the clips sounded the same to me. But anyway when you slow a clip doesn't Vegas by default maintain the pitch?

walter-i. wrote on 11/28/2022, 1:47 AM
 

BD has always supported 720p50 in PAL regions... hasn't it?

+1

Additionally, there was even a tool with which you could use 1080p50. I haven't tried it myself, but if someone wants to, they can give it a try.
https://www.videotreffpunkt.com/videotreffpunkt/index.php?thread/13194-1080p50-bd-iso-mit-dvda-genp50bd-plus-exportmarkersfl/

Musicvid wrote on 11/28/2022, 2:51 AM

@Musicvid I'm tone deaf so the clips sounded the same to me. But anyway when you slow a clip doesn't Vegas by default maintain the pitch?

The elastique plugin is a kind of early pitch resampler; it was ok for speech, but introduced a lot of flanging and distorion; there was a freeware plugin on the internet that worked better, but it too, was unsuitable for music, 'cept maybe Metallica.

Understand that musicians want perfect "memory reproduction" of pitch, tempo, and timbre (pronounce ˈtambər); it's quite unlike an audience being wowed by a good performance. Closest video relatives are pixel peepers. Go to hydrogenaudio.com if you want the full audio wannabe treatment. ;?)

You guys are probably right about BD formats; I only burned a few images, it was all NTSC DVDs and no frame rate conversions were involved.

tl:dr follows: Most of our shows were done in VP8 from multicam DVCAM shoots. Three dozen mics, six subs were not unusual. Only the main camera pair and one outboard recorder could be freerun synced and genlocked with timecode.

Since one or two tracks invariably drifted from the master cam audio, my solution was to chop it into ~9 minute chunks. Cuts were made exactly on zero-crossings and faded ever-so- slightly, introducing miniature gaps, hundreds of them. The chunks were then aligned to the master with pluraleyes, and where it failed, aligned by eyeball and offset by a fixed amount if an ambient track. If a gap was audible, I just filled it with neighboring background noise.

Took three weeks, five days a week, to sync a show. Many incremental projects so we could revert when something went wrong.

So this is how we overcame drift; never tried slowing anything by 4% though, I doubt it would work.

 

3POINT wrote on 11/28/2022, 3:17 AM

To get audio AND video perfect for Bluray specs better record directly in 1080p24 (or 2160p24).

PeterDuke wrote on 11/28/2022, 6:22 AM

I have uploaded to dropbox an excerpt from the original video file and a zoomed version as it will appear in the final Blu-ray.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wkx9vvrkt0vvx1h/AAB9XlPIExxnzYpKOkt2pxtHa?dl=0

The sound in the original excerpt is as recorded by the camera while the sound in the final excerpt is from the two microphones near the choir. You will notice in the zoomed final version that the panelling behind the compere is shimmering. What can I do to reduce this shimmering?

The performance is gone, never to be repeated. I know I can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, but what I want is the most presentable sow’s ear that I can get.

In front of the compere, you will see six trophy cups awarded to the choir many years ago (long before television and my time in the choir!) when choral competitions were in vogue.

I was not in the performance because of a persistent cough and croaky voice.

Yelandkeil wrote on 11/28/2022, 8:19 AM

Project: fullHD-25p

Eventvideo: RE:Vision-DEnoise, CGP-gamma
Eventaudio: eFX_VocalStrip
Media: VideoStabilization
Composite: upper track for the compere, lower track for background compensation
Bustrack: Color corrector for finalization

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