@Crowyote wrote:

I've haven't received any email offers for an upgrade since last Spring, but Magix keeps trying to push Movie Studio on me.

They do push the MAGIX Movie Studio versions (which are totally different from the discontinued VEGAS Movie Studio products).

The page linked below includes the current "regular" special Upgrade offers (see the Online Shop there and click to select "Upgrade" as a "purchase option").

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.com/us/upgrades-for-vegas-pro-and-vegas-movie-studio/

(The page does mention that the VEGAS Movie Studio product line was discontinued and is not available any more from MAGIX.)

Btw, have you subscribed to the MAGIX Newsletter?

Yes, thanks. Those offers I was getting each time I started up VP17, until a couple months ago were much more enticing. I see other people mention getting special offers here and there via email. I feel left out. As far as I know i signed up for the newletter, but it's only consisted of emails about Movie Studio offers since the Spring for me (I was getting VP19 offers before). :(

Upload anything you want. You'll get back compressed audio.

Opus Codec

And recompressed video.

Upload anything you want. You'll get back compressed audio.

Opus Codec

Thanks for sharing that codec, John. this is the kind of help I was looking for.

Well, there is an "uncompressed" AVI option under the "Video For Windows" render settings. I made one of those and it looks and sounds quite excellent. It's just huge. I have no clue how long it will take to upload to YT; guessing . . . 8 hours for a 1 min 16 second video. This could be in part due to the fact that I'm still running Uverse internet and AT&T has not installed Fi-Os on my block even tho I can't call in without them begging me to get it and I live in the shadow of their Bryan St. CIA building.

ProRes has somewhat less insane file sizes for uploading.

I am also interested in good audio on youtube, so I have prepared a little experiment. I uploaded 4 versions of the same video: the first rendered in x264 with Voukoder, all settings at default (119 MB), then the same converted to mkv with Mkv toolnix with audio at 24/96 (148 MB) then in ProRes with audio 48/16 (3.42 GB) and finally uncompressed AVI (20.5 Gb!) The original recording was done with two Panasonic G9s and two Schoeps Mk 21 microphones with a Tascam Dr60 Mk2. Luckily I have an FTTH line and the upload took only a few minutes.

YouTube will re-encode your video no matter what format you submit it in. There are many threads on ways to optimize a project for YouTube by expert Vegas users on this forum .... search the Vegas Pro Video forum.

@Crowyote @edoardo-l

Giuliani 4k Mp4 X264 Voukoder default

Giuliani 4k MKV Voukoder audio 24/96

Giuliani 4k Prores audio 48 kHz 16bit

Giuliani 4k AVI audio 24/96

Executive Summary

Youtube will reencode video and audio to a file size and delivery codec that fits their corporate goals for "efficient delivery". The only possible difference in the sound that Youtube returns to the user is the avoidance of generation losses when you upload audio to Youtube using a lossless codec.

Disclaimer

• I'm too old to notice the difference for much of the material that I might listen to on Youtube.
• I have a high resolution audio player and only listen to LPCM audio when I care.
• There are many weaknesses in my various signal paths that make the whole issue moot.
• I told my sixteen-year-old granddaughter last week that because she has listened to compressed audio all of her life from portable devices that she has never actually heard what music sounds like.
• I have recorded in studios where I've had a chance to listen to the actual unmastered analog multitrack recordings before there was any manipulation at all.

Beautiful music! 😀

If you will bother with demuxing your files to elementary streams, I think you will find the 1st, 2nd, and 4th audio streams to be identical in bitrate and size. Only the 16 bit audio stream will be smaller. MediaInfo isn't much help, bc it doesn't show bitrate for Opus.

I am also interested in good audio on youtube, so I have prepared a little experiment. I uploaded 4 versions of the same video: the first rendered in x264 with Voukoder, all settings at default (119 MB), then the same converted to mkv with Mkv toolnix with audio at 24/96 (148 MB) then in ProRes with audio 48/16 (3.42 GB) and finally uncompressed AVI (20.5 Gb!) The original recording was done with two Panasonic G9s and two Schoeps Mk 21 microphones with a Tascam Dr60 Mk2. Luckily I have an FTTH line and the upload took only a few minutes.

Very nice. I've played that piece, but never on a true romantic period guitar.

Listening with my interface, it's true the last one sounds the best with the most dimension.

However, I have to ask . . . why do you think 24bit/96k necessary. I only ever use 24/48k and I can hardly notice a difference between it and 44.1k. 96 goes way beyond the range of human hearing. I'd wonder if I could discern the tonal changes if this last one had been rendered with 24/48 . . .

Since some mastering is necessary, I can't imagine how there would be an audible difference between 48k and 96k. I use Izotope Ozone 9 with Reaper to exactly hit -14LUFS-I and -1db with the maximizer by performing a few dry runs on my audio track, and then output when I nail it exactly. I'm sure you already know that this is target for YT's compression ratio, any less and they raise the volume and any more and they turn it down which could change the nature of the audio.

Also what is a FTTH line? I did take over 8 hours to upload my last video which was also about 20gb.

 

@Crowyote @edoardo-l

Giuliani 4k Mp4 X264 Voukoder default

Giuliani 4k MKV Voukoder audio 24/96

Giuliani 4k Prores audio 48 kHz 16bit

Giuliani 4k AVI audio 24/96

Executive Summary

Youtube will reencode video and audio to a file size and delivery codec that fits their corporate goals for "efficient delivery". The only possible difference in the sound that Youtube returns to the user is the avoidance of generation losses when you upload audio to Youtube using a lossless codec.

Disclaimer

• I'm too old to notice the difference for much of the material that I might listen to on Youtube.
• I have a high resolution audio player and only listen to LPCM audio when I care.
• There are many weaknesses in my various signal paths that make the whole issue moot.
• I told my sixteen-year-old granddaughter last week that because she has listened to compressed audio all of her life from portable devices that she has never actually heard what music sounds like.
• I have recorded in studios where I've had a chance to listen to the actual unmastered analog multitrack recordings before there was any manipulation at all.

Last one he uploaded sounds best. Warmer tone and clearer sense of space.

I think I might try to the Voukouder for some of the longer videos I make, but since I run a Windows PC I'm not sure I can run ProRes.

FTTH stands for Fiber To The Home (1Gb download - 300 Mb upload) ProRes is available in Vegas 19 & 20.

I have adopted the 24 96 standard since 2000 because after long comparative listenings of live recordings, mainly baroque music, I find it gives something more.

Here is the link to my latest video of an original work "Ramkali Romance" premiering at 7pm today using the uncompressed AVI format. I constructed the visuals using a combination of Vegas Pro and Adobe After Effects.

I think youtube sounds good enough, but it's not good compared to original recording. You're probably wasting your time with the audio. I understand what you're doing, feeding YT the highest quality everything to get the highest quality encode but mostly it's a wasted effort (mostly)

Take this comparison between original audio, and youtube audio, even with bluetooth headphones I can hear a difference

https://videy.co/v?id=fVvFssdY (you may have to try this link on a chrome browser, wasn't hearing audio with firefox)

In Vegas 17 you can get 48kHz / 24 bit PCM audio in the Sony XAVC render format. At 116 Mbps, upload time should be more reasonable.

Mediainfo Report

General
Complete name                            : C:\Users\John\Render\PQ Source - Medium Complexity.MXF
Format                                   : MXF
Format version                           : 1.3
Format profile                           : OP-1a
Format settings                          : Closed / Complete
File size                                : 415 MiB
Duration                                 : 29 s 997 ms
Overall bit rate                         : 116 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : 2022-09-24 06:45:22.000
Writing application                      : SONY Vegas 13.0
Writing library                          : Sony MXF Development Kit (Win32) 4.8.0.113.1

Video
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High 4:2:2 Intra@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC                   : No
Format settings, GOP                     : N=1
Format settings, wrapping mode           : Frame
Codec ID                                 : 0D01030102106001-0401020201323103
Duration                                 : 29 s 997 ms
Bit rate                                 : 114 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : Component
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 1.829
Stream size                              : 407 MiB (98%)
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
Delay_SDTI                               : 0

Audio #1
ID                                       : 3
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little
Format settings, wrapping mode           : Frame (AES)
Codec ID                                 : 0D01030102060300-0402020101000000
Duration                                 : 29 s 997 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 152 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 1 channel
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 29.970 FPS (1601.6 SPF)
Bit depth                                : 24 bits
Stream size                              : 4.12 MiB (1%)
Delay_SDTI                               : 0
Locked                                   : Yes

Audio #2
ID                                       : 4
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little
Format settings, wrapping mode           : Frame (AES)
Codec ID                                 : 0D01030102060300-0402020101000000
Duration                                 : 29 s 997 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 152 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 1 channel
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 29.970 FPS (1601.6 SPF)
Bit depth                                : 24 bits
Stream size                              : 4.12 MiB (1%)
Delay_SDTI                               : 0
Locked                                   : Yes

Other #1
ID                                       : 1-Material
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : MXF TC
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00;00
Time code of last frame                  : 00:00:29;28
Time code settings                       : Material Package
Time code, striped                       : Yes

Other #2
ID                                       : 1-Source
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : MXF TC
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00;00
Time code of last frame                  : 00:00:29;28
Time code settings                       : Source Package
Time code, striped                       : Yes

Other #3
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : SMPTE TC
Muxing mode                              : SDTI
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00;00

I think youtube sounds good enough, but it's not good compared to original recording. You're probably wasting your time with the audio. I understand what you're doing, feeding YT the highest quality everything to get the highest quality encode but mostly it's a wasted effort (mostly)

Take this comparison between original audio, and youtube audio, even with bluetooth headphones I can hear a difference

https://videy.co/v?id=fVvFssdY (you may have to try this link on a chrome browser, wasn't hearing audio with firefox)

I completely disagree with those results!

I've put alot of time and research into this, I'm not done with my journey on getting the perfect audio formula; but I've done some serious work this year towards getting audio results with youtube uploads that mimic very closely to how the original audio sounds. It is ALOT of work and trial and error for every single track to get the right settings, so I can see how anybody reasonable would talk themselves out of doing the work. For me, it's worth it.

Compare the audio of the YT video:

the same track on bandcamp: https://crowyote.bandcamp.com/track/ramkali-romance

Although most streaming platforms seem to agree on a -14LUFS -1dB standard, BC seems to buck this trend and the track is not only quieter on the BC player it also lacks some of the clarity in the highs (perhaps they prefer a higher level since there is so much oversaturated electronic stuff on there?)

Listening to the original .wav file and comparing with both, the Youtube resolution sounds the closest to the original. The exact same volume level, the tone is pretty close.

My computer has a strange driver on the realtek speakers that constantly has to be reset, and only doesn't act up if I set it on 16 bit/48k (I only use it for casual listening in general). However, if any 24 bit audio plays on youtube or anywhere else, there is an audible gravely sound introduced in the trebles; when I did the test earlier on the lovely Giuliani piece that Edoardo posted, the 16bit one was first - sounded fine on my realtek speakers. Then I played the 24 bit ones and immediately I noticed that weird sound. I changed the setting to 24 bit and treble noise was gone. I have to change it back to 16bit or toggle it at some point later or it will act up again.

HOWEVER . . . I think the visuals of the video has lost some resolution in the upload. So Vimeo I guess it is.

"I think I might try to the Voukouder for some of the longer videos I make, but since I run a Windows PC I'm not sure I can run ProRes."

Vegas Pro 17 has a Pro Res lookalike called Magic Intermediate, but it doesn't support 24 bit depth.

In Vegas 17 you can get 48kHz / 24 bit PCM audio in the Sony XAVC render format. At 116 Mbps, upload time should be more reasonable.

Mediainfo Report

General
Complete name                            : C:\Users\John\Render\PQ Source - Medium Complexity.MXF
Format                                   : MXF
Format version                           : 1.3
Format profile                           : OP-1a
Format settings                          : Closed / Complete
File size                                : 415 MiB
Duration                                 : 29 s 997 ms
Overall bit rate                         : 116 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : 2022-09-24 06:45:22.000
Writing application                      : SONY Vegas 13.0
Writing library                          : Sony MXF Development Kit (Win32) 4.8.0.113.1

Video
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High 4:2:2 Intra@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC                   : No
Format settings, GOP                     : N=1
Format settings, wrapping mode           : Frame
Codec ID                                 : 0D01030102106001-0401020201323103
Duration                                 : 29 s 997 ms
Bit rate                                 : 114 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : Component
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 1.829
Stream size                              : 407 MiB (98%)
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
Delay_SDTI                               : 0

Audio #1
ID                                       : 3
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little
Format settings, wrapping mode           : Frame (AES)
Codec ID                                 : 0D01030102060300-0402020101000000
Duration                                 : 29 s 997 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 152 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 1 channel
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 29.970 FPS (1601.6 SPF)
Bit depth                                : 24 bits
Stream size                              : 4.12 MiB (1%)
Delay_SDTI                               : 0
Locked                                   : Yes

Audio #2
ID                                       : 4
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little
Format settings, wrapping mode           : Frame (AES)
Codec ID                                 : 0D01030102060300-0402020101000000
Duration                                 : 29 s 997 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 152 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 1 channel
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 29.970 FPS (1601.6 SPF)
Bit depth                                : 24 bits
Stream size                              : 4.12 MiB (1%)
Delay_SDTI                               : 0
Locked                                   : Yes

Other #1
ID                                       : 1-Material
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : MXF TC
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00;00
Time code of last frame                  : 00:00:29;28
Time code settings                       : Material Package
Time code, striped                       : Yes

Other #2
ID                                       : 1-Source
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : MXF TC
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00;00
Time code of last frame                  : 00:00:29;28
Time code settings                       : Source Package
Time code, striped                       : Yes

Other #3
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : SMPTE TC
Muxing mode                              : SDTI
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00;00

Thanks John!

I definitely need these kinds of suggestions for my longer videos. I love the sound of an uncompressed AVI now that I've tried it and it compares well to original, but the upload time is unreasonable. I'll be doing some listening comparisons.

Take this comparison between original audio, and youtube audio, even with bluetooth headphones I can hear a difference

https://videy.co/v?id=fVvFssdY (you may have to try this link on a chrome browser, wasn't hearing audio with firefox)

I completely disagree with those results!

You can't hear the difference between my youtube video and the other link?

The video on the link is the file I uploaded to youtube, it's the original I created (not re-encoded), with good headphones or speakers you should be able to notice the youtube audio is lower quality

Compare the audio of the YT video:

the same track on bandcamp: https://crowyote.bandcamp.com/track/ramkali-romance

Your very high quality audio is being re-encoded. The audio quality of both is very average. Your youtube audio is as expected, youtube quality, and your bandcamp link is a 128kbit/s mp3. For personal use, nobody has been using mp3's of that bitrate for the last 20 years, mp3's were taken out the back of the shed and shot a long time ago. They are inferior to every other audio format.

The youtube audio is also lowbirate, but opus is a nice codec. They are very small files compared to what you uploaded, you can't expect miracles.

Listening to the original .wav file and comparing with both, the Youtube resolution sounds the closest to the original. The exact same volume level, the tone is pretty close.

AAC audio is superior to mp3, at a given bitrate AAC will be superior. Your mp3 is 1.17Mb, the AAC 1.18Mb so YT audio should be superior, however if you are served the opus audio it will be better again as you can see by the file sizes. But still low bitrates compared to your original

HOWEVER . . . I think the visuals of the video has lost some resolution in the upload. So Vimeo I guess it is.

Vimeo may have better audio too, don't know much about that platform. A trick for YT is to upload at 1440p even if you recorded 1080P, this forces the superior VP9 video codec for better video, and opus codec even when played back at lower resolutions. For me even though i'm served the lower quality h.264 video, it's combined with higher quality opus audio, which is good

Take this comparison between original audio, and youtube audio, even with bluetooth headphones I can hear a difference

https://videy.co/v?id=fVvFssdY (you may have to try this link on a chrome browser, wasn't hearing audio with firefox)

I completely disagree with those results!

You can't hear the difference between my youtube video and the other link?

The video on the link is the file I uploaded to youtube, it's the original I created (not re-encoded), with good headphones or speakers you should be able to notice the youtube audio is lower quality

Compare the audio of the YT video:

the same track on bandcamp: https://crowyote.bandcamp.com/track/ramkali-romance

Your very high quality audio is being re-encoded. The audio quality of both is very average. Your youtube audio is as expected, youtube quality, and your bandcamp link is a 128kbit/s mp3. For personal use, nobody has been using mp3's of that bitrate for the last 20 years, mp3's were taken out the back of the shed and shot a long time ago. They are inferior to every other audio format.

The youtube audio is also lowbirate, but opus is a nice codec. They are very small files compared to what you uploaded, you can't expect miracles.

Listening to the original .wav file and comparing with both, the Youtube resolution sounds the closest to the original. The exact same volume level, the tone is pretty close.

AAC audio is superior to mp3, at a given bitrate AAC will be superior. Your mp3 is 1.17Mb, the AAC 1.18Mb so YT audio should be superior, however if you are served the opus audio it will be better again as you can see by the file sizes. But still low bitrates compared to your original

HOWEVER . . . I think the visuals of the video has lost some resolution in the upload. So Vimeo I guess it is.

Vimeo may have better audio too, don't know much about that platform. A trick for YT is to upload at 1440p even if you recorded 1080P, this forces the superior VP9 video codec for better video, and opus codec even when played back at lower resolutions. For me even though i'm served the lower quality h.264 video, it's combined with higher quality opus audio, which is good

Honestly, I didn't check out your comparison, but I will today.

I was focusing on whether or not the audio from my original is comparable listening through a soundcard or interface with decent quality headphones. And like I said my own computer's built in soundcard can distinguish between 16bit and 24 bit files, so there is something to the files being uploaded as 24 bit.

I only gave 2 links where did you get the other reading from? OR are those "projected file sizes?" How do you do these type of analysis? How did you get the opus format since I"m not using it? Are you running those evaluations from the Youtube site or the preview player on the forum?

I am surprised at the poor quality of the bandcamp player for preview. It seems like this cheapo explanation of how the they are maintaining enough bandwidth to share and store massive amounts of music for essentially free. When someone supports the artist one can get various file types (.wav, .flac, etc) essentially mimicing the original. It seems like they would do better representing artists with a more professional compression.

I would like to use opus, but since I'm hunkering down on VP17 until I get a better offer than the standard upgrade not sure if I can use that codec. Are you implying that by upscaling my video to 1440p the VP9 codec automatically translate a high quality avi (or xavc etc.) into opus or a higher bitrate less compressed audio file?

Another thing I noticed is that the of the original uncompressed file caused a problem with YT's "Premiere" thingamajig. It caused the video to glitch during the countdown and cut off the 1st minute of the "premiere." So I'm not going to use that silly premiere thing anymore.

I think youtube sounds good enough, but it's not good compared to original recording. You're probably wasting your time with the audio. I understand what you're doing, feeding YT the highest quality everything to get the highest quality encode but mostly it's a wasted effort (mostly)

Take this comparison between original audio, and youtube audio, even with bluetooth headphones I can hear a difference

https://videy.co/v?id=fVvFssdY (you may have to try this link on a chrome browser, wasn't hearing audio with firefox)

Ok I finally checked it. It just sounds like you didn't maximize your track for -14LUFS-I -1db and the track got quieter and a bit less detailed after posting to YT. Nice fado piece btw. What is the site videy's upload guideline suggestions for an audio track?

I will say that I like the ability to have a lower peak like -16 or -18 even tho I've gotten used to -14 there is a loss of headroom with that level, which is why many audio engineer on reddit keep bringing up that streaming platforms should bring the threshold down.